Small English Scroll

[Ddbltrbl]

Does anyone have pictures that show how to cut small English Scroll?

I'm working with just a visor and finding I can't see well enough to cut much of the fine detail seen in so many of the wonderful examples on this site. So, I thought I would focus on small English Scroll to begin with since, while still being pretty detailed, I've been led to believe it can be done effectively with just a loupe or visor.

I found a few nice examples of English Scroll both on-line and in books. I also have some photographs which Simon Lytton was kind enough to share with me when I meet him last October, showing some beautiful examples of his English Scroll. But I haven't found anything showing quite enough detail for me to determine how the cuts are made.

I found a really interesting article by Barry Lee Hands http://www.barryleehands.com/craftsmen_of_london.htm where he explains "three-cut English scroll" this way:

"The first cut is a medium-length line, slightly curving from near the outside scroll line toward the inside scroll line to define the underside or shadowed area of the leaf. The second cut is a small half-circular cap cut to imply movement and the circular nature of the end of the leaf, and then a long curving cut finishes the leaf; hence the name “three-cut”."

I tried to do this, but it just doesn't seem to come out very close to what I'm seeing in the pictures. Guess I'm not following the description very well.

I also found a thread in the café where Marcus Hunt gives some great coaching and explanation. But again, no pictures showing enough detail to see how it is actually cut.

Would really appreciate any help I can get on this!

[carl bleile]

If you could show some pictures of what you have done we might be able to show you a few tips. When I'm teaching I have to have the student cut something so we can go over it to get the details right.
Carl Bleile
southwest,Ohio

[steel]

This is a work in progress of a new Charles Lancaster 12 guage. The first pic shows some of the scrolls and flowers complete with shading.

The second one shows the build up of stages from outlining the scrolls, the inside and then outside work being applied but the scrolls have not been shaded. Shading makes one hell of a difference to scrollwork.





Hope this helps.

[Peter]

That is some VERY nice looking scroll Steel.

Dbltrbl - the way the cuts are made could be your problem. In a class I took, First we made single straight cuts on a practice plate that needed to look like an elongated teardrop. We needed to have a graver with a fairly small face and enough flex to "pop" the metal out at the end of the cut. Next we practiced cutting the same shape with the proper amount of curve in it.

Then once you have the spine cut, you make the first cut (that forms the leaves) from the proper distance from the outer spine to almost touch the inner spine. Then the next cut begins inside the fist cut and just branches off and is "popped" out forming the leaf.

Not sure I explained it so well, but the key is starting that cut inside the first one.

Peter

[Ddbltrbl]

Carl,
Thanks for the offer. I will definitely avail myself of it once I actual cut something (which should be later today). I was having trouble seeing / understanding it well enough to even get started.

Steel,
Thanks for the pictures! Really nice! And, the close-up of the flowers is a great bonus!

Peter,
You hit it on the head! I had no clue the way the cuts were made, and couldn't see enough detail in the pictures to figure it out. But, I was practicing cutting lines last night and had an epiphany. I figured out that the cut in between the leaves must be an elongated tear drop shape, and probably should be the first cut. So, I started practicing that shape. I still wasn't real sure how the rest of the cuts fit together, so your confirmation / explanation helps a lot. Thanks!

Actually, I also had a surprise chance to talk to Simon just before logging on to the forum, and he graciously explained basically the same thing. I can't thank him enough for how helpful he's been. Thank You Simon!

And, then I logged in and saw Steve's announcement that Simon will be teaching an Intermediate English Scroll class at Ray Covers in June! Man, I would love to attend, but I'm not sure I would qualify as "intermediate" by the time the class starts! But, as helpful as Simon has been, and as beautiful as his English Scroll is :yesnod:, anyone interested should definitely take his class!

Anyway, I won't get there by typing here, so -- Back to practicing!:thumbsup:

[Ddbltrbl]

Well, it's still a far cry from what most of you are doing, but I'm sure everyone could use a good chuckle, so here is my first practice plate attempting English Scroll. You can probably tell I was scratching around for a while with a dull graver before I realized it (first time to break a tip). I would love to hear any advice!

Also, what direction do you normally cut the tear drop? I tried both ways and cutting from the leaf end towards the stem seems to give me the most control, but I'd like to learn to do it right!

[Peter]

Ddbltrbl - the link to your picture didn't work for me? I learned to cut the "teardrop" from thin to thick. By that I mean when starting near the outer spine, I locate the point of my graver and begin with the thin part of the teardrop and curve towards the inner spine while deepening the cut and popping out the chip at the widest part of the cut.

For me, the way I envision the process is the "double cut" if you will, is the negative part of the scroll and the leaves are formed by what remains. Once again, my thoughts may not sound so logical to others?

Peter

[Steve Lindsay]

Here is a large pic of a Holland & Holland with Roland Baptiste small english scroll..

[Steve Lindsay]

Here is one of Barry Hands engraving when he had first received his PalmControl.




Flexible gravers and flicking
There is an old method before pneumatic tools to flick using flexible or springy graver shanks. This was at a time before high speed steel, cobalt and carbide was used or even invented. At that time gravers were made from carbon steel such as is used in band saw blades. It wasn't unusual for engravers to make their gravers from worn out carbon steel saw blades. The graver shank was thinned so that it would flex like a spring. To flick with this the engraver would come to the end of the cut, stop, point the graver steeper and load the graver shank up so that it was flexing and ready to spring. Now when the point was picked up, the graver shank would make an audible 'ting' as the loaded up spring shank snapped the chip out. This method used to be used for small English scroll with non power gravers. The engraver Simon Lytton from England who is well known for his English scroll engraved this way without power, however he now is using a PalmControl™ with carbalt gravers. Engravers could get a way with this using carbon steel graver points because they are less hard and brittle than modern day graver steels. If this technique is used with carbide or carbalt the point would break off in no time. I am not an advocate for thin shanked gravers because they do not work well with pneumatic tools. The shank will flex and vibrate from the fast pneumatic impacts and we loose impact power efficiency. Thick shanked gravers that are ridged will cut much cleaner and easier with a pneumatic tool. Here is info about this and thinning gravers shanks http://www.engravingschool.com/priva...%20gravers.htm

[SVD]

Steve, that top picture is a great study piece!

Man is it hard to see the cuts for the scroll when it's done right like that!

Looking carefully you can see that each 'leaf' is really just three cuts - one cut that digs in and flicks out that neatly rounded point to make the gap between the leaves, One cut that comes up and around to make the top, and then one cut to define the head of the leaf.

Not that that's the only method used, just the vague description of it I'm currently able to hold in my head.

[Ddbltrbl]

Thanks Steve and Steve! The close-up of Roland's work in particular really makes it a lot easier to see what's going on. I really appreciate the help!

Not sure what is going on with the picture link? I can't see the thumbnail (small) version either, but I see the full picture when I click on it??

[steel]

Much as Roland's English scroll depicts cleanly executed scrolls, it is nether the less, very much the 'continental' and not the 'English' version of this style.

The differences between true English and Continental-English scroll stand out a mile if you know what you're looking at. Shading is often missing from all the scrolls (as can be seen here) and the 'outside work' often has no idea which way it is going (btw, not the case in Roland's example). This should grow from the scroll just as another scroll would i.e. in the opposite direction. And shading should be applied to every scroll's point of origin plus the head of every scroll. Tendrils and leaves should be shaded periodically. By doing so it adds interest to the design.

It is perhaps, unfortunate, because without these subtle elements so called 'English scroll' loses it's character and all it becomes is coverage. When executed in this manner it is often responsible for the "I don't like English scroll" or "It looks like escargot (snails)," type comments. English scroll should never appear to be mechanical, rather it should be organic like a plant.

A couple of other points. 1. English scroll is designed to be seen with the naked eye, and 2. it should be cut black, i.e. there should be no sparkle or brightness thrown from the scrolls. Much as I admire Barry's work (especially his English scroll) this picture is like seeing his work in negative and it cannot be fully appreciated when seen like this.