Shading practice

[Chapi]

Here are a couple of scrolls that I cut into a practice plate for the purpose of shading practice, but critique on anything would be greatly appreciated. I used a Lindsay Artisan with a universal graver point. I have been engraving since June or July of this year. Thank you in advance,
-Chapi

[Steve Lindsay]

That looks super! The scroll is very cool and unique. The shading is great too. How many plates have you gone through to get this good? That is amazing to think you just started a few months about with the Artisan and you're this good already.

Steve

[Chapi]

Thank you again for the words of encouragement! This is probably plate eight or nine, but the other plates had a lot more scroll on them, so I had a lot of trial and error, plus I try to watch at least one of your youtube videos a day. These forums helped reveal a lot of things that I know I wouldn't have figured out on my own, and I am very grateful to everyone that shares their knowledge freely here.

[Zernike Au]

Wow! I like the style of your scroll. Thanks for sharing and please keep posting.

Zernike

[JT Kinney]

Hi Chapi,

Looks Great, nice flow, and good balance. Keep up the Good work.
Thanks for posting.

JT

[Chapi]

Here are a couple of my latest practice plates. I feel like I am stalling out a little on the shading, so I tried several different ways to see what would look best on that type of scroll. There is one scroll that I tried to use my new banknote engraver, but I think I need more practice on that, as it left only furrows in the metal with ridges on either side instead of cutting the metal properly, no matter how often I sharpened it. That's on the circular design.
[IMG][/IMG]

[mckeenh]

I had the same problem with a 50 degree vee tool and quit using it as it furrowed badly. I went back to a 90 degree and just made light cuts and it worked great. I was going to go back to the 50 degree and try some different heels to see if I could correct the problem but haven't yet.

Neil

[Chapi]

I feel it has to be a heel problem for me also. I have been bouncing back and forth between a 90 and Carl Bleille's banknote, and I think I will have it figured out soon. I actually used the banknote for the shading on the small scrolls, so if I use it very lightly, it works. I just might be expecting too deep of a line for shading. I notice that Carl recommends rounding the bottom for deepline cutting. I have too many projects right now. I wish I had a job, so I could take a vacation and get some of this done. Working for yourself makes it hard to hide from your boss tho.

[Herman Knives]

Chapi, your work is improving greatly. For your banknote shading try a Lindsay Universal that I believe is around 115 or so. The thing about shading is that you want to start very sharp and fine and gradually increase to wider and wider til at the end your shading cuts merge together and make a nice solid black. I nor may others cant accomplish that kind of shading using a narrow V graver like the 60or 70 degree graver. I can do everything with a 120 with a short heal.
Try it and I think you will see what I mean. Search a shading practice plate I did some months ago and see what I mean with the bigger variation of grays you can accomplish with fewer cuts.
Keep up the good work and dont hesitate to contact me if you have any questions.

[Chapi]

This makes sense to me now that you explained it that way. I was using the universal for most of the shading, but couldn't really see where I was going. Now that I have the drill press madrill diamond wheel setup, I can grind down a unversal so that I can get those lines close together, and because the tip widens, I can get a more drastic change with a universal than I would with a 70. I do use the 70 now for crosshatching, which I couldn't make look right before. I will take some new photos soon and post. Thanks again for clearing that up for me!

[Roger Bleile]

Chapi,

I don't belive that banknote tool is for scrollwork. It is for really fine banknote scenes and figures. Think of it as a type of bulino tool. Maybe Carl has a better answer but that is my understanding.

CRB

[SVD]

Be tough to cut scrolls with it - it cuts awfully deep for trying to turn a corner.

Be good for a nice straight line border though, and of course it's excellent for cleaning up the edges of a relieved area.

[WVEngraver]

I'm glad this thread has popped back to the top as I am working on shading a knife now.

In a way, I have to partially disagree with you Tim .... respectfully of course.

Great shading using a wide graver can cut down on the number of cuts but the placement of lines needs to be more precise and well coordinated to achieve the look you are talking about. I think this why a lot of highly experienced engravers are using a 120. It saves time and they can pull it off.

Also with the type of work you are doing ... light will reflect from the cuts of a wider graver and you can't always fill them with paint like on a firearm. In that case, a narrow graver holds oil better.

Chapi, I've found that a combination of gravers work rather well for doing fine shading. A 90 for most of the cuts and a 105 for cutting force lines. The 90 produces a much softer look as you have the ability to cut deeper lines and more of them to achieve the same level of gray (and better) as a wide graver. It's the depth of the cut that helps provide more flexibility.

Experimentation is the only way to improve and you're doing that. I'm combining shading techniques I've experimented with on the last two knives into the knife I'm doing now. I expect it to give me better dimension as well as softer look to the leaves. Of course, the trade off is time but learning to do the best shading you can pays off ... it can bring even the simplest scroll design to life or even help salvage an entire design.

[Chapi]

Thanks to all of you for your input on this. I never had any trouble shading with pen and ink, so I thought this would be a breeze, but its turned out to be one of the trickiest aspects of engraving. I understand the structure of it and how each line has to start from a zero depth and increase up to a black depth, and these graduated lines combine, they give the illusion of a smooth shaded brush stroke, but actually making that happen in steel is a tricky deal. I had a big breakthrough when I ground down my universal so that the tip was much easier to see, as well as the metal that you are cutting. I think this is an essential ingredient because I can know see what the lines next to the line I am cutting look like. Its amazing how complex this seemingly simple task can be.

[SVD]

Chris

Don't forget that Chris DeCamillus recently found that with a highly polished graver you actually get darker shading with wider gravers.

There's a clip from his video available where he shows how lines from a 120 look darker than lines from a 70.

And I think I know why too - in the clip he cleans the lines with acetone to show there's nothing darkening them. While they're wet with acetone the narrower lines darker, as you'd expect, but as it drys the wider lines become the darkest.

I think what's happening is that with the highly polished graver the cuts are mirror bright so while they do reflect the light better they reflect it only in a very sharply defined line and since they're reflecting all of the light they look dead black from any other angle. The wider cuts make wider 'black spots' so they look darker.

But mostly I agree with Chapi - shading in engraving is surprisingly 'deep' for such shallow cuts.

[WVEngraver]

Sorry for leaving you hangin' Steve ....

Yep ... things that you would think make sense don't. The gurus sure are doing some wild stuff.

The best advice I got on shading was from Lee Griffiths regarding the use of lines vs lines + cross hatching.

The best advice I got from Christian D. was when he flamed me on the other forum about using a pencil. It really is all in the pencil. The technicalities of graver geometry are so subtle that it becomes the personal preference of the artist. The average person wouldn't know the difference but the trained eye does. At our level, it's still experimentation in the challenge of developing that trained eye.

A polished graver does make a darker mark but a wider graver also reflects more light at certain angles. I would think a narrow polished graver would do the trick and that's where things that should make sense don't. I do like the 90 better and does require going much deeper to get the right width of the cut.

Catch ya later ... .. .

[Javier-Scrimshaw]

Great work, it looks nice and balance. Keep going and waiting for your new post!

[SVD]

Chris

In some thread, somewhere, we were talking about shading and I came to the realization that it does make sense to shade your drawings with a pencil, as long as you realize you're only drawing the effect you want and not the actual lines.

You also have to practice various shading techiniques so you can replicate on the metal the effect you drew on the paper.

I have, of course, come no where near mastering these things but at least I have a plan of action.

[Big-Un]

Don't want to step on your toes, but your scrolls are a bit "angular"; not concentric scrolls. Concentrate on getting them to flow better with less "steps."

Bill

[Chapi]

Don't worry about stepping on my toes. Its why I posted here. I have been working on cutting circles now for a while, since Ron pointed out a similar problem with my scrolls in a .45 slide I engraved. I am cutting concentric circles with a keen eye toward making the rings as close to perfectly parallel as I can. Thanks for the honest critique, Bill.
-Chapi

[beadaholic]

I would just love to see your process from the beginning. As I am just starting out it would be a great help to see what you did first and how you decided to do what you did. Your work is lovely and I admire you for how nice this work looks. Congratulations! and Thank you!