To cut Cleanly?

[jdveritas]

I have a couple of questions that may need to be ansewered for severall of us. When a cut is made the metal at the top edge of the cut is forced upwards invariably to some extent. I have been told this is desirable for metal inlay as it produces a lip that is then forced down during the burnishing and sanding process and allows a more secure inlay. Banknote ofcoures is another issue all togather as this lip is visible in certain lighting conditions and is prone to being buggered up. Any suggestions on cutting technique to lesson the height of this lip, and I must ask... how much of a lip dose a twenty year veteran engraver cast when cutting?.... .003"?

Here's another question on the subject. when finishing the cut, I pop the graver up and out, while dropping the heel. This causes the graver to shear instead of cut but seems to be necessary to maintain even depth to the termination of line... back cutting may help and is probably the ansewer but this also produces on small level uneveness in depth at start of line..... any suggestions on getting rid of that tiny shear at the end of cut without leaving a heal mark ...... I guess the ansewer is to stop short and back cut at termination point.... I dunno..... help, I'm almost there.. Jim

[jdveritas]

Sorry I guess I allready know the ansewer to at least the second question... maybe back to lettering... use the appropriate graver maybe a small flat and punch the termination point of the line, then cut to it and lift out. Maybe the only cure to raising the lip/bur is simply developing a lighter touch.... I dunno, time I suppose will tell. Jim

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Jim

Here's my thoughts based on my experience (as little as it is)..............

You maybe forcing the graver a little bit hard and therefore casting a slight burr on the top edge. Let the graver do the work and put less pressure on the tool.

The graver maybe slightly dull and not cutting cleanly. Keep it sharp.

You maybe trying to cut too deep therefore forcing metal out and up. Try cutting a bit shallower.

Gety a bit of scrap metal and spend a few minutes making cuts trying out the above and see if it makes any difference.

Hope this helps a bit.

Cheers
Andrew Biggs

[jdveritas]

Hey Andrew, thanks for the help.... I try not to press on the tool at all, I think with these air gravers it is desirable to simply guide it, but at times find myself getting a little heavy handed as they say. the lip/bur that i cast up on the top edge is when cutting at a depth of say between five and ten thousandths.... the lip/bur istelf is probably somewhere between .001"-.0005" in height... something you only see in the right light.... but its there. I believe this is a mechanical side effect of the job and will be present too some extent no matter who you are. I dont think the problem is tool sharpness, as I continually inspect under scope and sharpen when necessary... but you knever know. I wonder if print engravers block sand the surface after engraving to elliminate this or if their just that good. Any additional info would be appreciated, Jim

[Tom McArdle]

clean cut= proper tool geometry for the cut desired.

deep cut shallow heel=rough

long heel tight turn=rough

broken point=rough

Always check tool, Daniel san, always check tool!

Tom

[Jim Small]

Gentlemen
Let me refer you to this Lindsay site.........
http://www.engravingschool.com/priva...oint-Intro.htm

I used the 90 degree for years and suffered from the same problem mentioned above. My advice is to make a change to the Lindsay point 120 and learn tool control....
The heal on my gravers measures .004 and cuts with no raised edge even on the tight turns. I do very little stoning or sanding of the engraving. The shadow cuts are microscopic.
Jim

[jdveritas]

Thanks Fellas.... I have been using proper tool geometry for quite some time now, I like the lindsay point with negative heal relief, and use a variety of different face configurations.... I like to keep the heal as short as possible and probably is generally .003" in length from face to belly. as the man Tom says use the rite one for the job... you know, I dont know if what Im doing is actually all that bad... it looks great, and dosent scratch as a solid burr would... the lip or raised portion is difficult to see ...... sounds like denial..:D Well... will continue to watch and practice.. I sure cant wait to show you guys and galls what Ive been working on... tis not the best out there, but it is origional and all mine.. I think you will like. Jim

[Steve Ellsworth]

Without seeing your problem or watching tou cut it's a bit hard to pinpoint exactly but here are a few thoughts on a couple of possibilites.

First of all lets take some of the mystery out of the graver cuts steel process and see if we can't simplify this so you can get on with engraving.

The trick to this is to stop thinking likean engraver and start imagining yourself sitting on the tip of the grave as it works it's way through the metal.
Now while this may sound strange to you it will help. For a long time I had problems sharpening tools. I Couldget real close but never could get the ultimate grind and ofcourse at that time Lindsay wasn't telling. One night i actually had this dream, there i was sitting on the graver, watching the tip hit the metal and as it cleaved it flowed off the sides like water against the bow of the boat. The next morning i shapened my first gravers correctly.

YOu say you are resharpening and checking under the scope alot. That tells me something is wrong. You simply don't have to sharpen that often if your gravers is properly prepared. Gravers don't cut, they cleave. It's a molecular level pushing and spreading. But not a cut. So the tip has to be sufficiently small to do this at a size considered acceptable for engraving. While it may seem logical that the tip should have a sharp point that doesn't hold up because it's not nice to try to turn a very tiny graver point in a radius, it will dig in and break. Or gouge things. By putting an extreamly small secondary face on the tip of the graver that problem is elimininated. It also has the benefit of allowing you to come out of the cut cleaner. Logic of this is that the shape of the tip dictates the shape of the removed metal and it's stress state when you flick it. The mini secondary presents a square edge cutting surface along its top which acts completely differntly upon the metal than a sharp point which can only rips its way up. This little upthrust will deform the end of the cut. Knowing that you have two choices, either change your graver or change your style and reverse cut. Chances are you will have to do a reverse cut either way to maintain line width but you will have far better luck with the "dubbed" tip.

If you are seeing this deformation along the entire lenght of the cut. Your sides of your graver are not sharpend to a height sufficient to cover the depth of your line and you are pushing the metal not cleaving it, and chances are you have the relief angels ground incorrectly. in short it sounds like the metal being removed doesnt have any where to go so its being forced against the side will of the cut and raising an edge.

WHen you are cutting the metal should come up in a nice curl or chips and move foreward or in some fashion spiral out of the way. Anything else means dull graver.

Pay attention to sharpening those surfaces which come into contact with the metal when doing the work. Polish at 90 degrees to your hone marks. Use tap lube or something similar.

Also check to see if what you are cutting deforms easily. Lots of possibilites.

Second senerio is not so much your hand control but your foot control. I suppose this applies to the Palm too but in a different sense.

One of the hardest things to learn about running an Airgraver with foot control is how to control the air fall off at the end of the cut. You can't be running full power when you hit the end of the line. You run the risk of distorting the end of the cut as the graver is coming up and banging away with all the force it needed to cut the line only now rising up there is less metal to resist the impact so as the tip of the graver comes up to the top surface of the metal while impacting things get mushed. Neither can you go to slow. It's a matter of practice and it may take you some time. If you have a foot pedal build a rest so you can mount it just like its a car gas pedal at an angle. Trying to work it as it comes out of the boxis not good. Now you can run it with your toe if you's like and have much better control. Your gaver hand and foot must run in complete harmony. Just like driving a car.But the pedal is both accelerator and brake. Learn to use as both
keeping in consideration the foot responds slower than the hand in 99.9 percent of the population.

If you have resharpend the tool you got from Steve that was sharpened you need to order another one to study. Dont ever screw with it. Just look at it under the scope and use it as a model to compare your other gravers against. Only after learning to replicate it do you mess with it. Then you can play with differnt angles heels and what not.

So the odds are that you simply need to sharpen correctly and learn what your Airgraver will do for you. There is the key. Let it do the work. Guide it left andright roll it back and forth. See what each graver does in a piece of metal at different impact rates and air power. It's not so much learning how to engrave as it is learning to draw with a new kind of pencil. If you don't know what it can do you wont know how to engrave with it. So screw up a lot of junk metal and see. Push it to it's limits and back it way down so slow and smooth you dont know its running. Stand the graver on it's nose and crank up the idle. DO that with every tool. Learn your pallet and then engrave (paint) with ease.

Keep the scope to see your sharpening attempts improve. Put it aside or use it on a very low power to work with. Get more involved with the line than the quality of the line. Then do other things. AS you do this you will get a feel for what the blade is going through. That will help you to understand sharpening as we have already discussed. Study your self as you work, step back in your head and watch your hand work with the Air graver. Watch it cut. Think about how much time you have to work the foot pedal to cut the air back to coincide with where your graver will slow to a stop. Then after you have played with this process for a while you can stop paying attention to all of the processes focus on creation. It 's like riding a bike for the first time. When it clicks it's with you forever. You simply have to drop the technical stuff for now and play with the tool like an artist, but not an extreamly picky artist at this stage of the game. Just slopping some stuff on the canvas to see how it all works out. Not trying for a masterpice. Just a sketch or two.

Trust me it's not that hard although many people tend to make it so.

SLE

[Allan]

JD

This has been a really interesting thread but it leads me to a couple of questions. What kind of metal are you cutting and how deep are you trying to cut it in one pass.

The reason why I ask is that if you are going too deep and are trying to move too much metal at one time the metal may mushroom as you are trying to cut it. I think because there just isn't enough room for the metal to roll out cleanly as it tries to get out of the cut so it may be pushing the edges of the cut to the sides. What you are describing is what happens to my apprentices when they tried to cut pewter for the first time. A soft metal and the tendency to go too deep causing the edges to distort.

The second is the idea that you would go back over the cut to correct the depth at the end of the cut. Usually that kind of cut is reserved for the start of the cut and only to correct the width, never the depth. If you are having to go over the cut to correct the depth at the end I would start cutting a little shallow and see if that makes a difference.

I don't cut much steel, very little in fact. But when I went to the chicago custom knife show to meet steve and looked at a lot of the knives I was struck by how shallow most of the better cutting was, except in the areas where there was inlay.

I just don't think your problem is linked to graver geometry, but to something a little more basic .

Allan

[jdveritas]

yeah...... tis like I hit the advice jackpot... thanks again. Well I'm at present cutting soft mild steal, but not dead soft. I think it's surely a combination of all the ellements discussed.... I have to face it, I'm trying to become a part of that small percentage of people who use the resources newly available to shorten the time it takes to develope a skill that generally takes a person many years to master.... you know I have read all the books on the subject, that I am aware exist and follow all the rules the best I can.... but with my small amount of experience ( just over a year), I would not be at all surprised to sit down with an old graver and have him laugh at my tool sharpening skills or my ability to syncronize the foot/hand/eye.

I'm getting great mechanical chips they are long and curly.... thought of grinding a breaker due to the fact that their too long.... so I doubt that my sharpening skills are all that bad... maybe I am cutting too deeply, but I have an even heal from tip to side of face far higher than depth of cut... am currently cutting main lines in one pass with the exception of finishing/backcutting... depth is around .010"-.015" Like ya say, tis shootin in the dark with out sitting at side and watching... but worth discussing anyhow...Thanks, Jim

[jdveritas]

really..? I will try to lengthen heal a little n see what happens.. my work consists of many tight turns and twists, and somehow got the impression that the shorter the heal the better..... cant wait to try. Ya know, cutting pewter sounds like a great way to develope fine control.... hadent thought of that, but softer may be better for the beginner. Jim

[Tom McArdle]

If you are used to steel, pewter will be an adventure, I'm guessing...

If you want to try a softer metal, how about copper?

Tom

[Steve Ellsworth]

Jim

long heels straight line
short heals curves

i heel at 1mm or so - just enough to see a glint on the side of the graver in the right light.

maybe we should be talking about the relief angle of your heel rather than the length of it. Regardless if you get it too long you will know it the first time you try to cut a curve.

[jdveritas]

Yeah , Hey again fellas... the heel angle I use (17.5) is a number passed to me by Mike Dubber, I have experimented a little to adjust for clearance under scope n such, but have found his advice to suit me best at most times. I usually cut the face at 55 degrees and this certainly could be our culprit... I cut a negative 2.5 degree relief behind the heel and for fine work have been using a sixty degree included square graver. am doing bulino at the moment but will soon experiment with the advice given on this thread, I think I will start by cutting much shallower, reducing background and cutting again.... on otherside I will attempt to experiment with face angle and heel length.

After considering all the facts.... this things been rolling around upstairs for the last few.... I think my problem is probably a combination of steep face angle and depth of cut... It is deffinately necessary to use scope to find this burr/lip, but its there... n driving me crazy... I suppose thats how she goes.

Yup, Graver Tom, Copper is what I use to practice for gold, and have cut a pewter figurine once, but found the pewter to be a terrible experience.... surely I gave up too quickly.

Thanks again fellas for taking the time to help... it is greatly appreciated, Jim

[Steve Ellsworth]

Jim,
Sounds like you are getting closer to success.

A 55 degree face will hurt nothing. In fact for many it is a standard. 45 50 55 60. The greater the face angle the more strength you have with regards to working in different, tougher, metals.

45 or less presents a "weaker" tip. But far easier to see where its going under the scope than looking over a 55 or 60. Matching the graver strength to the metal is always the safest bet. That's why SL offers some variations on the theme for you to pick from and you can always dub the tip if you think you are going to break something.

If you are not forcing the tool it should make no difference. In actuality once you get it figured out as to the process of accurately sharpening the relief angles it doesn't make all that much of a difference what face you use. It's the relationship of the angles, Not the numbers.

Keep in mind jewelers look at things with 10x for a standard. They are not going to drag out a scope and go over your individual cuts with a fine tooth comb at 45x. Neither will the client, unless you are trying to present and compete in a world class engraving senerio. So if your design work is good and the cutswork well everyonewill be happy. It's very easy to get over critical and look at things too closely.

Another thing to bear in mind is all this reference to numbers is very sketchy stuff. If and when SL brings out his sharpener the issues willl be mute because it will be a no brainer. Today, if you can find two sharpening fixtures on the market that reference degrees accurately one to another or that are individually repeatable to any great extent you have an advantage over the rest of us. These fixtures have so much slop in them that there is no logic in using them past the point of rough shaping (1200 grit) when you are first starting out. When faceting it is extreamly tough to get the angles right, using a fixture. Invariably using the fixture and a wheel, the heels will be off center or cut too long. This can only be verified through the scope and at considerable power. It is amazing how little an angle has to be off to screw things up.

Discarding degrees and all that. If you hold the Airgraver at a comfortable angle graver tip down and there is enough room for yoour fingers to hold the tool and move over the metal you are about there. Translate that to your fixture setting. It may turn out to be 17.5 or it may be different. The bottom line is simply this. If the angle of attack is too shallow the graver will have a tendancy to skate out of the cut. If it's too steep, you dig your way to China and cut huge trenches with distortion. But that is not to say that greater angles are not useful. It depends on the surface you are trying to get to. Sometimes you can only do certain areas with a graver that comes in realatively steep. In my realm, carving coins, the majority of my gravers are set to come in at a pretty high angle simply to clear the rim of the coin if nothing else. Others are set at more traditional angles for flat art engraving.

The chosen graver angle is the sum total of the balencing act between hand, vise position and material. Eventually you may end up with a collection of gravers with a lot of differnt grinds.

Some of the folks who visit here have literally hundreds of gravers set to perform certain functions. Some get used constantly others sit on the bench till needed.

For the average person 90 110 120 and if you are brave a 130. Flats will vary by the job. I have a love for very large knife gravers in lieu of flats. It's all a matter ofplaying till you get it right.

Have fun and keep cutting.

BTW copper has a tendancy to distort. I do alot of it. There are different grades available. Get the harder stuff to play with. Don't expect copper to cut much like Gold. It doesn't. Gold is way more fun. If you pick up copper water pipe it makes for a nice material to learn on and you get to play on curves too.

Long curls are not a bad thing. The curl is your best indicator of the consistancy of your line depth and width. You need to pay attention to it.

SLE

[jdveritas]

Hey... I was hoping somebody'd say it was gonna be ok... will mind the advice Steve. I didnt think I had incorrect tool geometry... per say, and this is why you all had to practically beat the numbers out of me... maybe I experiment further with heel angle, but imagine the depth of cut is the problem. Dose it sound correct to you that a greater angle on the heel, and increased negative relief would be desirable for relieving tight squirrly back ground area? Jim

[Steve Ellsworth]

Originally Posted by jdveritas

Hey... I was hoping somebody'd say it was gonna be ok... will mind the advice Steve. I didnt think I had incorrect tool geometry... per say, and this is why you all had to practically beat the numbers out of me... maybe I experiment further with heel angle, but imagine the depth of cut is the problem. Dose it sound correct to you that a greater angle on the heel, and increased negative relief would be desirable for relieving tight squirrly back ground area? Jim

I guess you are going to have to define what a tight squirrly background is! Then it becomes an issue of what tool to use.

Generally the easiest way to remove a background is to crosshatch it with a 90 and then go in with a flat to remove the metal. That way you can control the depth eavenly across the field. Problem with flats is that if you do not heel them ( and it doesnt take much) they tend to dive right in and do more damagethan they do good. So there are two options. 1st just take the flat and cut a tiny heel at whatever angle fits your fancy. This gives the graver the ability to slice and dice without digging in. Another option is to radius the heel by rocking it up and down while moving forward and backward over your shapening material. Again, keep it relatively short. It's not that critical, you could have a 1/4 of an inch heel and it would still work but not well in a confined area. If you are working in tiny areas you just grind narrower flats and make multiple passes. With the crosshatching in place you can keep pretty consistant, it's fast but it has it's limitations due to the size of the intersections. The angle of the heel on a flat just changes the position of the the angle you hold the airgraver at to make the cut. Nothing more nothing less. It's simply flat on the bottom with a sharp leading edge. Glorified wood chisel. Nothing magic going on. Polish it and you get a shiny cut. Thats all there is. Negative this and that doesnt apply. In fact, go down load a picture of a wood chisel, flip it upside down and there is your flat.

Another trick i employ is to work over the area with a sharp stipple tool at a set air pressure and idle speed, after the area is covered evenly I then go after it with the flat. By using the same impact rate and pressure (joys ofthe airgraver!), the indents are at the same depth. The removal of the material is easy and flat as you just cut down to the point where the dots disappear. You can repeat this as many times as necessary. I find it works better than crosshatching for small stuff and softer metals.

Also keep in mind that there is no rule that says a flat must have a square shaped face. You can taper, round or otherwise roll off the corners and sides to control the way it cuts. There are places standard gravers just dont fit. Thats why you have to make tiny ones from other materials, like remounted 1/16 rod. When i cut and inlay the eyes of a person on a coin the channels i cut or drill or whatever are way smaller than one could accomplish with off the shelf tools. It's always a case of make them smaller. It all depends where you draw the line on your product time vs money. At some point it's gets futile to go so small that it takes a scope to see the refinement. People really don't care that much. Now the coin crowd, they are a bit differnt. They all have scopes and picky picky picky. For the rings and other jewelery stuff. You have a lot of lattitude. I see platinum rings sell for thousands with engraving that wouldn't fly on a nickel.

Hope this makes sense.
sle

[jdveritas]

Yessir.. makes great sence.... again what a treat, the stipple background thing I had thought of in passing but not yet tried.... I think it would do a fella good to read this post a couple times over... theres a tid bit here and there that I havent seen or dont remember seeing elsewhere. great stuff that only experience teaches... Thanks again Steve, your up in Denver if I'm thinking rite. I live in Pueblo, hope we can meet some day, I'd like to shake your hand. Jim

[jdveritas]

.010" seems shallow.... Not So.... I tell ya, I'm sorry I made such a big deal, and I didnt even try cutting shallower in the first place... .... Was having too much fun discussing. Truns out I was cutting way too deep for the graver... at least for somebody at my skill level. Better now, Thanks... Jim

[Tim C]

One thing that you should take into account when you are shaping your gravers is that you need to stay within 50 to 65 degrees for your “Included Angles” (IA).
The IA is the combination of the “face” angle and the “heel” angle.

If you are using a 50 degree face angle, and a 17.5 degree heel angle, this adds up to 67.5 degrees. This is 2.5 degrees over the included angle range you have to work with.
This range of angles is taken from lathe and mill operators handbooks over many years.
Since engraving uses a similar type cutting procedure as a lathe or mill, these numbers are very helpful in setting up your cutting tools.

If you lower either the face or heel angle by 2.5 degrees from what you have been using you will see that the gravers will not raise that edge you talk about. Your tools are plowing through the metal, this is why you are getting the raise edge.

There are always exceptions, but you will rarely go beyond the range of these numbers.

Try it, I think it will help you out.

Tim

[Steve Ellsworth]

Tim: Good information

Another thing to look at when figuring all these angles is the inherant slop transferred the main fixture by the vertical rod, which may or may not be the right size.

It can add or subtract a degree or two depending on which way force is applied when holding the fixture.

I dont have one of the newest ones, but Steve replaced the shaft on my dual angle fixture because it was undersized and so loose there was no way to replicate a grind with any accuracy that it was maddening. Another issue was that the jaws were not lined up properly and it took a bit of adjustment with a small sledge hammer to get things squared up to 90 degrees.

Joys of being an engraver!!!

[Tim C]

Glad to here your taking good care of those super fine accurate engraving tools. :D
As the old saying goes, "Don't force it,,,use a bigger hammer."

I had to do the same thing after knocking the fixture onto the floor, point down, the Carbalt graver didn't break, and the jaws got knock out of true.
Really the graver not breaking was the real surprise, as hard as the Carbalt is and being long and thin, it really should have snapped.
To do that much damage to the fixture and not break the graver, say's a lot about the choice of alloys used, they sure work for me, thanks Steve.

Good Luck

Tim

[Ken Hurst]

Steve, what air pressure do you use for stippling ? Thanks, Ken

[jdveritas]

Thanks Tim, cant wait to try.. think I'll reduce the face angle a bit n see what happens. Jim

[Steve Ellsworth]

The air pressure varies by the shape of the tip - flat ball point, how deep i want it to go, what i am trying to accomplish and of course the type of metal. Some being softer than others.
Most people think of stippling as just puinching a lot of tiny holes in the metal to cover up mistakes or get some kind of artistic effect, I use a wide variety of shapes and sizes (small) to chase the metal.

So it varies and it's an experimentation process. I always do it under magnification to start with to get most of the areas covered and then switch to a visor and move things around to see how the metal needs to be worked to make things look consistant under differnt lighting. In that respect it's a lot like doing bullino.

Regardless of the pressure you have to keep theangle of attack consistant or things get weird

hope that helps

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Ken

I use about 5-10 psi with the air graver set to medium to light (not to light).

Then I sort of glide the the tool over the area holding very slightly above the surface , not on the surface. You know if it's to high a setting as it looks more like a metiorite strike as opposed to tiny dots. Then I just work the area in small circular motions. Keep yor point sharp and resharpen often.

Hope that helps a bit.

Cheers
Andrew

[Steve Lindsay]

Welcome Ken, Thanks for posting!

I'm stippling similar to the way Andrew and Steve described. The PSI pressure on the regulator is relative to the maximum power you may want... however fine engraving or stippling can be done with the tool set clear up to 60 PSI. Not that you'll use this much power, it just means you have it there if you need it. Setting the PSI with the regulator is similar to a governor on a automobile. If the governor is set at 10 mph, there is no way you can go over 10 mph even if you floor it. If the governor is at 60 mpg you can still go 10 mpg by just not stepping on it so hard. The stroke length setting is relative to the size and spacing of dots desired. Set at a longer stroke for larger dots with less spacing and at a shorter stroke for smaller dots with less spacing, setting the stroke so 2/3 of the first exhaust hole is open is a good setting for stippling. How fast the tool is moved over the work also determines the spacing.

When stippling scenes, I don't use a foot throttle. Instead, use the needle valve that sets the idle by turning it up. In other words, keep your foot off the throttle, and use the needle valve for the throttle. Turn the idle up so it impacts continually and as hard as needed. I use the tool like this for the rougher areas of a scene. For the detail around the eyes of an animal, I place the dots in one at a time by hand without the AirGraver. I'll use a point sharpened like a needle, or a 90 degree square graver without any heel.

You can use the tool for making larger dots for background work, or finer dots for scenes. To set the tool for larger dots, increase the stroke distance so more of the exhaust holes are exposed, and increase the air volume to the tool with the needle valve, or by just using the foot pedal. Hold the punch loosely off the surface similar to what Andrew is describing, and move it around quickly within a small area to produce the random dots.

Hope this helps some.
Steve

[jdveritas]

Very Cool, never would have thought to use the needle valve that way... Am sure that, by doing that, you can achieve a much more consistant pattern of dots.... Is an adventure to first learn bulino or stipple bulino.... Have I gone dark enough yet.. am I using all the shades... no.... O No.... by using the needle, it must take out or lesson the tendancy to over shade. Thanks Steve.... Jim

[Steve Lindsay]

Hi Jim, Glad that helped. Like you mentioned this is a good way to make consistent sized dots. When the phone rings and you're interrupted, instead of turning the needle valve down, flip the toggle switch off to the whole system. This way when you're ready to go back to work just flip it on and the setting is just as it was left, so that the dots are still the same size.

[jdveritas]

Nice...... Its the little stuff, most of us miss I think.... could easilly imagine turning down the needle everytime for a month or so and then realizing ya could just flip the switch, Have been doing metal prep on a floor plate for about three days now..... was a wilson combat disaster, going to be hopefully, a work of art. Will use all of these tips and techniques to engrave, cant wait to show. Jim

[Steve Lindsay]

Cool Jim.. Looking forward to seeing it! Steve

[jdveritas]

Ok fellas, I reduced the IA of face and heel to 65 (50 and 15) depth of cut automaticly went a hair shallower..... deformation at top of cut is markedly better... now takes serious magnification to see. Looks and feels much better, Thanks again for your time and consideration... Jim Burns

[Tim C]

You didn't mention what it was you were cutting, copper, steel or silver?

You are at the top of the range, if you are still getting some lip raising up, keep going, you may need to go down to 45 degrees for your face angle.

Then if you like the 17 degree heel you can add that back to the heel, just drop the face a couple to compensate. It's a Tit for Tat kind of thing, take some out of Tit and add it to Tat.
As you work with different metals, you will see that different IA's work with the different metals.

[jdveritas]

Thanks Tim, actually I was just thinking of doing that, I have been using a steep face because I am cutting steel, and will be cutting gun steel that I will not be able to aneal and reheat treat, I sure do miss that seventeen and a half degree heel, maybe if I go back to forty five for the face and dub the tip, I think I tried that a while back and found myself resharpening relatively often.... the lip is more of a very slight deformation now and should certainly not be considered a burr. But if its possible to do better, ya have to try it rite. Thanks again, Jim

[Tim C]

It's up to you, but if your not cutting hardened steel, then you don't need to go that steep, and you can go back to a 17 heel.
Even with the hardened steel, I think you can still keep enough room in the range to go with a 17 heel, but that depends on what the steel is like.
Good luck...

[jdveritas]

Hey again, well most of what I'm cutting is mild and relatively soft, but the reciever and so on...... even with soft, mild steel I have been having to resharpen at least once an hour.... at least knock the face back a little, to keep nice and clean...I can really tell the difference between a fifty and fifty five degree face as far as longevity goes, and adjusting the included angle down a bit has really helped clean up the cut.... I'd like to go back to fory five and seventeen but allready know the results.... it could be my relative lack of experience, that causes the need for frequent sharpening, regardless, this post and the advice that everyone has shared has made a big difference for me..... I am now cutting the actual piece.... looks good so far... Thank you all once again, Jim

[Steve Ellsworth]

Are you using an HSS graver
You shouldnt have to sharpen that much

[jdveritas]

Yesir Steve, I am.... actually after I made the last post, I thought about it and I'm sharpening alot more often than once an hour.... I'm using an old high speed graver, from the boss's competition.... wish I could just buy a handfull of carbides, but at present I am totally without funding for these things.... tis very sad considering the price, but thats the way it is...I'm gonna have to move back to fifty five on the face.... will be dificult to get used to a shallower heel... what do you like to do?

[Steve Ellsworth]

well theres your problem
shoving a piece of steel softer than the material you are trying to cut

pass on the carbide
get a carbalt and make a 120
you should not have to sharpen it for a year or two

next time you get into a fix like this give all the information and we can solve your issues with far less grief and confusion to you

Order it from Steve and throw that thing in the dumper.

I don't know what kind of graver you have in HSS but keep in mind that alot of those old gravers were designed to cut copper for priting work - they just don't have the oomph to do metal engraving so beware of what you try to use especially if you go on ebay HSS is not always HSS or the temper could be way off.

regardless, you would be far better off to practice on some softer metal till you get the right tools in hand

[Steve Ellsworth]

I don't make this deal too often but if you want to come up after new years and bring your tools I will run you through sharpening and how to do this stuff. When you leave you will be able to engrave pretty well, trust me. I teach fast.

Steve

[jdveritas]

Thanks Steve... I hope I have this figured out before then, but regardless I would love to get up there, meet and see the shop etc. Sounds like fun, and will be a great learning experience. Thanks, Jim

[Tim C]

I agree with Steve, you should not have to sharpen even HSS that often, I think you may have gotten the graver too hot and taken the heattreating out of it.
Save your money and get the Carbalt Graver from Steve Lindsay, this is the best graver material I know of, it is about the only graver I buy anymore. I only use HSS for inlaying 24k gold because it doesn't stick to the HSS.

I'll even loan you a graver if you want, until you can get your own. If you want, send me your address and I'll send you one of mine if you promise to return it later. Metalchipper@aol.com

[jdveritas]

Man that is cool, you guys are great.... I dont think I could look myself in the mirror if I had ya go to the trouble of mailing me gravers, But I sure do appreciate the thought. I havent ruined the temper on this one as I have only cut it with a power hone..... If I had I could tell by color change and am quite capable of rehardening and so forth if it were necessary.... so long as the carbon hadent been burned out of course... I think it must be my lack of experience (may be digging in or popping out of a cut too quickly).... I have used lindsays carbalt, other's carbide's and HSS, I have some CPM S60 V that I use for blade steel... and sure have thought of experimenting with cutting strips of that for gravers, but have yet to do it.

Thanks again, Once an old fella told me that his brother was the most socially minded individual he had ever met, meaning that his brother looked out for everybody. That to me was about the greatest thing I could imagine one person saying about another, the conversation changed my life, and I have since lived my life to mimic that behavior. Here it seems, I am among kindred spirits.....Jim