thoughts

[puffer]

Originally Posted by Gobbler

I have to say this is a great thread // I have been reading so much that I haven't even had time to give any input // you guys have some really good info

Puffer you may have said earlier and I missed it but Do you see a perticular style of engraving on the Scottish pistols and do you see
any unique changes over a certain time frame

Thanks

In my next serries of posts I will address that ???
For now let me say 1. Yes & no ( i hope the pics I will show will encourage the engravers to help out.)
2. no IMHO & that is one of the interesting points I have observed

Puffer

[puffer]

As I "promised, I would start posting my " Core thoughts" on the "general ?? we are considering. I will be posting this in "bite size segments" starting with an over view. & ending ( ???) with the engraving itself.

Some things I HOPE you will conceder.
1. PLEASE bear with me.
a. I am not an authority in any of the areas I am addressing. I am only sharing what I see. Plus even that is what others have assisted me in.
b. I will be starting out with "history" which I realize, many of you may not be interested in, BUT i feel is a VERY important part of the ?? Hopefully, some of you will agree ( or disagree) with me & contribute your thoughts.
c. I am posting this to LEARN ( not to assist Chas. in "winning :smilie5:

OVERVIEW--
I. In order to understand the development ( rise & decline etc) of an art form ( which engraving is ) understanding the "Culture (historical time frame etc.) is crucial.
II. Because of the immensity of the task, I have decide to narrow it down to a very small, bite size segment.
A. W. Europe then to the "British Islands" ( mid 1600-late 1700 ) Here is a map
1. The British Islands, were basically segmented into 4 general areas. Wales, Ireland, Scotland, & Britain. Each had it's own culture ( one, Scotland had 2 distinct cultures. Lowland & Highland. )
B. The next step was to narrow it down farther - Scotland.
2. As I mentioned above, Scotland had 2 distinct cultures ( Lowland & Highland) Here is a map of the 2 geographical locations.
missing pics

a.some pertinent thoughts on the Lowland culture
1. The culture was basically "British" -- Language was "British ( Scots English )(the "educated spoke French also) -- ( note, "British "culture was primarily their own adaptation of French # @ times "German influences) Clothing was "British -- Art was "British" -- Weapons were "British" Etc.
2. The Economic POWER was located here.
3. The Political POWER was here ( a side note that may "shock you ) is that the 4 major heros in Scottis history, were LOWLANDERS ( The Bruce, Wallace, James Douglas ( the Black Douglas) & "Bonney Prince Charles")

I am going to take a break hre, PLEASE comment. The next post will be the HIGHLANDERs

Puffer

[puffer]

I will now narrow it down farther, to the Highland culture.

NOTES
1. My "thoughts" on this are basic & somewhat general.
2. Our modern "concepts" of the Highland culture, is a ROMANTICIZED version, Dating from the Victorian times. (similar to our American idea of the "cowboy & mountain man"

Why the Highlanders ???
In spite of all the warfare,internal turmoil, out side influences, economics, politics, etc. that made major changes in their neighbors during the 150-200 years, I have selected, they changed very little.

Introduction to the Highland culture
I. Language
A. Primary - Scottish Gaelic - although "related to the language spoken by the Irish, it was quite different.
B. Some spoke "Highland English" but it was greatly different than the form of "English" spoken by the Lowland Scots.

II.Clothing
A. the Tartan Great" KILT- this maybe one of the most identifiable item, we associate with the Highlander. (note, the "small kilt ( the skirt style was a VERY late development. Many feel it was a Lowland "invention &definitely "popularized by the Victorian English
B Pants - pants were worn ( called "thews" ) often "plaid" )

III. Economics - The Highlands were very poor. They had very little industry, if any. What "wealth" that did exist, was in the "hands of the "Lairds" (see below.

IV. Political Power
A. THE CLAN ( family) This was an ever changing, confusing flow of alliances ( just try to find you Highland Clan Name, Sept ( adopted, sometimes perminate often temporary) Name.
B. The head of a clan was called a Laird who held his power because of wealth ( mostly land), Alliances ( very tenuous at best) & his ability to SURVIVE ( his own kin, his own "clansmen", other Lairds, even "kings)
C. Scottish Kings :willy_nilly:
1. All were Lowlander or ??
2. Some accepted the "King's" authority, some did not.
3. Alliances change (often in the middle of a battle)
D. ARMS ( I am offering this , because it reflects the "uniqueness" of the Highland culture, & it leads to my the next Major step in "narrowing this all down. The Highland weapons, although fall into the same general genre as their neighbor, & may have started out similar, but the Highlander, not only made their own changes, BUT clung to them LONG after others moved on.
1. Swords.
A. Basket Hilt Back sword & Broad sword- Although genre of the Basket hilt sword (broad sword & back sword ) was Western European & used by the English, The Highland version was different
Here is a pic of an example of a "lowland/English one.
Here an example of a Highland one

You will note that the Highland one is far more "massive. ( although there are many variations, they all are "massive" )
even though others moved onto other forms ( the rapier
long sword, saber etc, the Scots DID NOT

B. DAGGERS ( the Highland Scots called them "DIRKS"

Notes -
1. I will limit this to some of those, whose hilts lack "cross bars'"

2. I will show 2 general types
a. Those carried during the days of Armour ( when full Armour was worn.)
b. " " when only "partial" or no armour was worn.
c. Daggers were carried by most common men into battle, But to the Highlander, it became a SYMBOL of who he was.

Days of "ARMOUR
1. Blade length = 12- 14 +++" & very pointed.
2. The "BALLOCK" hilt
This hilt style is very ancient & was a style used throughout Europe.Here is a picture of some surviving hilts

3, This was not the "predominate" style Here is an example of an "Irish" dagger.

I think you can, by looking @ the bottom of the hilt why the name
( no offense intended Ladies)

NOTE - The Highland Scot DID retain this style of hilt.


Days of "partial" or no Armour
1. Blade length 10" or less ( The Highland blade remained about 12"- 14" or longer
2. The "ballock" was gone ( except for the Highland Scot.) here is an "Irish" dagger from this time


Not only did the Highlander persist in carrying this style, but did so until "modern" times here is a picture of a couple of good representative Highland "Dirks" from the Jacobean times ( note these are accurate reproductions


I need a break, I imagine you also do. Hopefully you will find this of interesting & add your thoughts

Puffer

[charles starks]

Have you any very close-up pictures of the Tara Broach? We know that it is small, and I have studied it from outside its glass case in Dublin, but the best photos I have in books do not do justice to the detail , especilally the wound gold wire ornamentation.

Now there is a good example. The item is small , its very VERY old a person would need very good eyes with no magnifying equipment to do that item. Hopefully someone will have a good clear photo they can post .

Ok lets see puffer , I think im following you here .
What im getting is that while many of the Scottish items have English influences , they are also an application all in their own .most certainly concerning the knots and intricate styles which seem to not have followed the same demise as other forms during that time period .

also it seems that these works also were more in the hands of common folks as well as the wealthy
would that be correct .

I would also say that there seems to be a resurgence in these styles recently for decorations .

[puffer]

Chas., Yes, you are basicly correct at least in the area of swords & daggers ( poss. jewelry as to the English influence, BUT do not foroet the "Celtic" influenc of the Irish

NOTE - in my next 2 segments though,I will show an item ( The Highland Scots all metal Pistol ) which DOES NOT seem to be influenced, at least in design, to have been influenced from the outside Plus the ENGRAVING I hope will engorage the engravers to help in identifying the influences.

As to the "common man & the wealthy, It appears that the differences were, as one would expect, be in the amount of decoration, materials used . quality etc.

As to the "modern" revival, yes, Scottish Highland "stuff" is ALL THE RAGE. But most of it is "romantisized IMHO

Puffer

[Marcus Hunt]

Originally Posted by puffer

1. The British Islands, were basically segmented into 4 general areas. Wales, Ireland, Scotland, & Britain. Each had it's own culture ( one, Scotland had 2 distinct cultures. Lowland & Highland. )
B. The next step was to narrow it down farther - Scotland.
2. As I mentioned above, Scotland had 2 distinct cultures ( Lowland & Highland) Here is a map of the 2 geographical locations.
a.some pertinent thoughts on the Lowland culture
1. The culture was basically "British" -- Language was "British ( Scots English )(the "educated spoke French also) -- ( note, "British "culture was primarily their own adaptation of French # @ times "German influences) Clothing was "British -- Art was "British" -- Weapons were "British" Etc.
2. The Economic POWER was located here.
3. The Political POWER was here ( a side note that may "shock you ) is that the 4 major heros in Scottis history, were LOWLANDERS ( The Bruce, Wallace, James Douglas ( the Black Douglas) & "Bonney Prince Charles")

I am going to take a break hre, PLEASE comment. The next post will be the HIGHLANDERs

Puffer

Hi Puffer,

I just thought I'd better correct some of your terminology if you'd kindly allow me to as it may lead to a better understanding of what you are trying to put across.

Firstly, the British Isles as you correctly state are a collection of islands spanning from the Channel Islands off the coast of France to the Shetlands in the far North Sea. The smaller of the two main islands contains two countries; Eire and Northern Ireland or Ulster. The larger of the islands contains Wales, Scotland and England not Britain. Britain was formed in 1707 by The Act of Union which brought the 2 Parliaments of England and Scotland together. Wales is a 'principality' in that it has no king/queen of it's own but does have the Prince of Wales (a bit like Monaco) and Ireland, again not having royalty as it's head of state, was a province. These 4 countries came together in economic union to from Great Britain and eventually the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as it is today.

Secondly, Britain being a sea going nation, and having been invaded countless times during it's history, has many influences in it's arts. For example, that which is considered 'Celtic' has influences/cross overs in the Pictish and Viking arts.

I could go on but at the moment am pressed for time but I hope this clarifies some of the geography.

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by Marcus Hunt

The smaller of the two main islands contains two countries; Eire and Northern Ireland or Ulster.

Northern Ireland and Ulster are two entirely different geographic regions: Ulster is one of the four Irish provences and is comprised of the nine counties of Antrim, Armagh, Cavan, Donegal, Down, Fermanagh, Londonderry, Monaghan and Tyrone whereas Northern Ireland is comprised of the six counties of Antrim, Armagh, Down, Fermanagh, Londonderry and Tyrone.

[puffer]

Gentlemen, THANK YOU for your imput. You are correct.

In my attempt to give some isight to were I am heading, I did not make it as clear as I should have, in that I was "segregating" according to "CULTURES" not countries. Also I was being, VERY gerneral.
Again thank you.

Puffer

[puffer]

Originally Posted by Marcus Hunt

Hi Puffer,

Secondly, Britain being a sea going nation, and having been invaded countless times during it's history, has many influences in it's arts. For example, that which is considered 'Celtic' has influences/cross overs in the Pictish and Viking arts.

.

This, IMHO is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT in the question that we are locking at. Not only in relationship to The "British Islands" but in any discussion, trying to understand the dynamics (creation, acceptance, demise & resurgence, of it's arts.

My next "major" post is going to present a "UNIQUE" "CANVAS" That one form of ENGRAVING that the Highland Scots used. Then I will present some of that ENGRAVING.

It is my HOPE, that you individuals, who are engravers will by
1. Identifying the motifs, & styles
2. the possible influences
3. The techniques

Puffer

[Big-Un]

What happened to the pictures....all those posted seem to have been dumped by photobucket? I'M MISSING OUT AND CAN'T STAND NOT GETTING EDUCATED!!!!!!!

[Danny C]

What Happened To The Pics?

I Don't See Them They Have Been Moved Or Deleted

[Marcus Hunt]

Hi Puffer, the reason I tried to correct your listing of the British Isles is that I happen to be English (and proud of it) and you made the mistake of listing England as Britain which it is not. For better or worse the English have dominated these islands and I think you were trying to say that the biggest influences on culture since the middle ages and until the Act of Union were English not British. I agree that Scottish arts and crafts have followed their own evolution but what I was trying to point out was the cross-cultural influences which are evident due to the fact that the British have travelled and traded far and wide and not just huddled on their island.

This is a fascinating thread and Puffer, thank you very much for your contribution; I'm eager to see where it goes. Unfortunately, like Big Un I can't see some of the pictures either (dumped by Photobucket) which is very disappointing.

[charles starks]

ya puffer , you need to check your photo bucket . alot of the photos you posted have been dropped

[puffer]

SORRY , I am fairly new @ using "photo bucket" & I did some "rearranging" in order to do my next series of posts. :smash: I will try to go back through my prior posts & see if I can figure out what is missing.

If anyone has a particular picture or pictures that they want me to try and repost I will try

Puffer

[Steve Lindsay]

Hi Puffer, Right click where an image was and click "properties" from the popup and you can see the name of what the file was. See if you can re-upload them to photobucket to get them showing on the forum again. Once they are back I can go through and right click each picture, save it to my hard disk, then upload and host them on engravingschool.com. I could then edit each post that has pictures and change the url it is pointing to. This thread is super. It would be sad not to have the pictures that go with it. I hope it will be easy and you can just re-upload them to photobucket.

[puffer]

Originally Posted by Steve Lindsay

Hi Puffer, Right click where an image was and click "properties" from the popup and you can see the name of what the file was. See if you can re-upload them to photobucket to get them showing on the forum again. Once they are back I can go through and right click each picture, save it to my hard disk, then upload and host them on engravingschool.com. I could then edit each post that has pictures and change the url it is pointing to. This thread is super. It would be sad not to have the pictures that go with it. I hope it will be easy and you can just re-upload them to photobucket.

Steve, thank you. I tried to get them from "photo Bucket into the original pos, but to no avail. If I sent them to you via a PM, could you reinsert them for me ????

The other alternative is to do a new post & refer back to the page it was on.
Please advise

Puffer

[charles starks]

puffer , if you go back to the posts that are missing photos , just click on the edit button . then go to the photo and insert the new URL from photo bucket.
for future reference remember anytime you change , move or delete a photo from photo bucket , it will remove that photo in any and all post you have used it in , anywhere on the net

[puffer]

Originally Posted by charles starks

puffer , if you go back to the posts that are missing photos , just click on the edit button . then go to the photo and insert the new URL from photo bucket.
for future reference remember anytime you change , move or delete a photo from photo bucket , it will remove that photo in any and all post you have used it in , anywhere on the net

Thought of that, but the "EDIT" button, is missing on these earlier posts.

Puffer

[charles starks]

how about just re posting the photos with a note on each about what post they go to ?
that should work i would think

[Steve Lindsay]

Hi Puffer,
The forum is set so that after five days the edit button goes away but I should still be able to get in to them. However, we wouldn't need to edit the URLs in the posts if the pictures with the same file names are up-loaded back to your account in photobucket. The posts will show the pictures without needing to edit since they are already pointing at the Puffer's photobucket. If that doesn't work I can use the links and files that you emailed to me tonight then edit the url in the posts. Try the re-uploading them to photobucket first. That should be the easiest.

[Steve Lindsay]

Puffer, I just realized there aren't all that many missing. The links that you emailed are already from photobucket, so you must have already up-loaded them. The url must be slightly different though since they don't show on the forum. Later tonight I can updated the URLs in the posts. That should do it.
Steve

[Steve Lindsay]

All of the pics are now hosted on the engravingschool.com site except for these. If you can figure out what the pics were please just email them and I'll update the URLs. steve@lindsayengraving.com There is a lot of good information in this thread!


page 7, post 64 (2 pics missing) Charles Starks 1163445.jpg 1163448.jpg ( I believe they were the spoon pics)
page 12, post 111 (1 pic missing) Puffer Untitled-ccpost1.jpg
page 15, post 145 (2 pics missing) Puffer MacLeodPistolRightFull.jpg untitled.jpg
page 16, post 152 (2 pics missing) Puffer LocationBritishIsles.png map.jpg
page 16, post 153 (4 pics missing) Puffer normal_evans20basket202.jpg Big-Early-Basket.jpg untitled.jpg Untitled-1llll.jpg

[john88]

i'm also amazed at the work that was done in that era of time. I've done die cutting and all types of engraving including guns jewelery and embossing but time and three dimensional computer machines have taken over nine tenths of this work. I've been retired for some time now. but i think the engravers to day do some wonderful work thanks for the photo's John D.

[puffer]

Steve, thank you for your assistance,

I was also able to restore all but pg.7, which was Chas' & page 12 which was the cig. cases. ( I no longer have the files, but as time allows, I will try to find some examples., maybe someone can help ???

Puffer

[charles starks]

to go along with Puffers examination of Celtic items , here is some examples from the Book of Kells showing how the Knots and layouts on a couple items were done .





puffer. i sent steve the two photos that i lost so they should be back up shortly .
thanks for your help here Mr Lindsay.

I would also bring up something about the English and their for lack of batter word , holding .
Because they did range so far in their trade , their work carries influences from many different contacts . So its not uncommon when we look closely at these early works to see those influences . So most certainly while the English effected the art and cultures of those other areas , they themselves also were greatly effected . Maybe to the point of losing a lot of cultural individualisms concerning art


I also think that when we look at other countries that had less world contact , their art including engravings hold more of a cultural individuality which appears to not be diluted to the existent of the larger more traveled nations of the time

[puffer]

:whoo: Chas. I have got to get that book.

ENGRAVERS, keep tjis in mind, as it may help in my next posts.

Puffer

[puffer]

Ladies & Gentlemen, since I messed up deleting, some pictures, I have decided to post my next post on narrowing it down - The CANVAS

Puffer

[puffer]

The next step in narrowing this down, was to select a CANVAS, that would give us a idea of the Highland ENGRAVING art.

Although I had one in mind, I felt that I would attempt to find others . jewelry came to mind, but sadly to say, I was unable to find a a good selection of AUTHENTIC Highland Scottish jewelry from the time period (ca 1650-1800) If any of you out there has some AUTHENTIC examples, PLEASE post them. !!!!

Because of this I reverted back to my original idea. The ALL METAL FLINTLOCK HIGHLAND PISTOL specifically the "RAMSHORN (Scroll) BUTT"

Although the All metal flintlock Highland pistol was made in other configurations,the "Ramshorn, was the major one, & seems to offer the best CANVAS. Here is a picture showing a "Lobe Butt" ( top pistol) & a "Ramshorn"



Some thoughts on the ALL METAL FLINTLOCK HIGHLAND PISTOL

I. It is considered "unique" in the genre of flintlock Pistols.
A. OVERALL DESIGN
B. THE FIRING MECHANISM

Note - because this subject is on ENGRAVING not Pistols, I would recommend that those who wish to learn more consult the following for basic information.
1.
2.http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadinga...78e667a072b306

NOTE_- I am a moderator on this forum & I started this thread as a companion to the posts I was doing here. ( NOTE- it still is a work in "progress, as this is


C. The ALL METAL CONSTRUCTION gives the ENGRAVER, IMHO, the "PERFECT CANVAS", to exercise his/her art.
1. All the surviving examples of this pistol are engraved, even the plainest, EXCEPT one version of the pistol issued to the ROYAL Highland Regiments by the British Gov.
2. The Pistols were made in 2 basic metals (except the above mentioned Gov. issued, which were made in Bronze ( "gun metal")
a. BRASS
b. STEEL ( polished & "blued" )

My next MAJOR post will feature the ENGRAVING. BUT here I need your HELP !!!!!!!!!!!!


I am now entering into an area that I FEEL VERY UNKNOWABLE. I can post examples, but I can not "interpret them.

1. How to sort ?????
2. What are the "motifs ?????
3. what are the antecedents ?????
a. other CULTURES ????
4, ENGRAVING TECHNIQUES employed ???
5. ETC< ETC
Puffer

[charles starks]

for those interested in the above instructions , i would recommmend
1) the book of kells , or whats sometimes known as the Book of Columba
there is an online resource for this

2) Celtic art ; the methods of construction by George Bain .
this is an indepth look at design and layout . to include lettering styles.



well done puffer :painting:
now a question is this engraving IE the patterns something unique to the Scots or can we link this to other areas of the time that may have influenced them ?

[puffer]

Originally Posted by charles starks

for those interested in the above instructions , i would recommmend
1) the book of kells , or whats sometimes known as the Book of Columba
there is an online resource for this

2) Celtic art ; the methods of construction by George Bain .
this is an indepth look at design and layout . to include lettering styles.



well done puffer :painting:
now a question is this engraving IE the patterns something unique to the Scots or can we link this to other areas of the time that may have influenced them ?

HANG IN THERE, my friend, I am heading your way, HOPEFULY with the assistence of others following this.

But first we must look @ the examples of the ENGAVING' Also the feed back on the oyjer ???????????

Puffer

[Danny C]

I think your getting too complex for such a simple subject.

It is: Pick what you like. Learn about it. Imulate it. Done.

There is no all encompassing knowledge base that will thus allow you to accomplish anything.

Since you like 1700-1800's embleshments, then learn that style - for the specific area (land area - Scotland, England, etc) then "just do it".

You could study it to death, and accomplish nothing, but learned a lot.

JMO

[charles starks]

well isnt that the real point ? to learn alot . with out having a strong base , without knowing from which one comes , without knowing the past we are all distended to simply keep re inventing the wheel and thinking we were the first to do so .
when someone asks about the art we do i think its a very good thing to be able to exsplain its roots , from where it comes.
if not then really are we not just making copies of copies ?

[puffer]

Originally Posted by charles starks

well isnt that the real point ? to learn alot . with out having a strong base , without knowing from which one comes , without knowing the past we are all distended to simply keep re inventing the wheel and thinking we were the first to do so .
when someone asks about the art we do i think its a very good thing to be able to exsplain its roots , from where it comes.
if not then really are we not just making copies of copies ?

Just a couple of additional thoughts.


NOTE Danny, I hope that what I am about to say, will not offend you or any other individual that is following this thread ,but I felt that it might help explain why I am humbly offering the info I am, & why I am asking for assistance in the areas I did.

I. The PURPOSE of the ???? Chas. posed ( as I understand it.) The ??? challenged me, & in order to try to "answer" I personally need to follow the trail that have described in my prior posts. I realize that I may have bored some, BUT I have personally been excited by being able to pursue this. It has opened a WHOLE NEW WORLD to me. The world of ENGRAVING.

2. My personal involvement in the crafts & providing them to the consumer.
A. Black Powder/Muzzle loading & to some extent Scottish.
B. The craftsmen, that I have the pleasure to be associated with are some of the best in their fields.:WHO: They range from Gun makers ( Chas. is one ) Blade makers, Leather craftsmen, wood workers, clothing ect. The two things these craftsmen have in common,
1. VERY high quality products.
2. Attention to detail & representation of the customers requirements.
This requires RESEARCH.
Here is an example. I recently mentioned that I REALLY hoped some day to have a "custom made" Dagger/Dirk. (note, these cost $$$$ & in order to finance this "desire, I was going to have to sell a few things. ) BUT 2 individuals in my local club, stated that they would like to provide me with one as a "PROJECT ( :WHO: Friends are where it's at ) The thing was, neither of these men had experience in this genre.
a. The blade & handle ( as I pictured before ) is somewhat complicated & the knife maker needed to do a LOT of research, both as to style, but also the techniques in making it.
b. The sheath also posed some challenges to the man who was going to craft it, & again, research was required.

I guess the major ?? is, what customer base are we addressing. The general (uninformed) or those who wish a quality product.
here is an example of my take on this
This Sporran is a common type offered The cost is appox. $200.00


This picture is one that I made recently made ( note the "rifleman's "badge is not shown as it would be mounted nor is it the one actually used. (it is an inexpensive example.) The cost to the customer (he provided the actual "badge used ) $250.00 ( the main fur is Beaver & the other is a red fox tail .

Thank you for your forbearance & allowing me to share

Puffer

[puffer]

I just received an email that I feel that I should share both the ?? & my answer.
??? - " Puffer, why the tag name and the avatar ? "

Answer - The reason for the "tag name" was NOT to hide my IDENTITY. I used it simply out of habit. And when I initially started to post, I had no idea that I would become as involved as I have.:smilie5:


I exist in 2 worlds
1. The every day world ( work ( $ = paying the bills ), research, training ( firearms instructor & Range Safety Officer , etc.) Here I go by my given name JACK W. ENGLUND
2. The "Black/Powder Muzzle Loading" world. ("My major "hobby") It is here ( At events, on the web, etc ) that I am Known as PUFFER. Even my close friends, most often address me as Puffer, instead of Jack.:yesnod:
BTW - "name tags" are either ones the individual choses or are given to them by others in the "community" They fall into basic types,
a. Discribes the person
b. "highlights a SPECIFIC character trait, or highlights an "embarrassing moment." :sbrug: I have a few that fall into this catagory And NO!! Chas. ( & the others looking @ this, from the BP/ML) this is not a licence to disclose the other names :doh: :laughing:

Oh, yes, the AVATAR. I chose this from is a series of photos that were taken a couple of years ago, @ a "major" event. Here I was doing what I often do ( & enjoy !!!) SHARING what little I know with others ( in this case, a group of "newbes", standing in the typical PNW "drizzle" listeng to the "Old Man" go on"
Here is another picture, of me doing this ( in this case the 2 on the right, in the picture, are respected Historical researchers & presenters from Ft. Nisqually ( a reconstructed Hudson Bay Co. Post )

I realize that this is TOTALLY off subject SORRY !!!

Puffer ( aka - JACK )

[puffer]

This next series of posts will show a few examples of the Engraver's art on the Highland Scottish All Metal pistol CANVAS.

All the pictures are from, museum sites, Auction sites, private collections, & m any from individuals who have over time sent me examples ( such as Pete 2@ Middlesex Village Trading Co. ) For those interested, here is an example of a site
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/...037&uid=717149

As I indicated before, all the surviving pistols ( I know of ) EXCEPT some of the British Gov. Issue, had some engraving on them.

The first series are pistols that I "classify as "PLAIN" & would have been available to those who could afford a pistol ( few were. Although the "clan chiefs" did supply some ) or in the case of some of the "nicer" ones, the "middle Class ??

Note, you will notice the engraving is "faint" on 2 of these pictures. Many of the surviving examples of the "plainer" pistols seem to be in this condition. These guns were used & show the wear. Also COULD the engraving it'self been at fault ???
Take a look & PLEASE comment on the aforementioned ??? (previouse post)














Thank you for your help

Puffer

[PS_Bond]

Originally Posted by puffer

...( note the "rifleman's "badge is not shown as it would be mounted nor is it the one actually used. (it is an inexpensive example.)...

The silver bugle is (was) the cap badge of the Light Infantry regiments - now found as part of the dress of The Rifles; until I went and checked, I hadn't realised there had been any Scottish LI regiments. Learn something new every day

http://www.lightinfantry.org.uk

[charles starks]

Let me see here if I can simplify what puffer is saying , if I understand him correctly .
We know that these items and the styles used have changed through the years .
In todays world , we see things that we like and we simply replicate them because we like the looks .

However what this does is take the item completely out of context for how and why the item was displayed or used . For example lets say we like the common English style of engraving that’s been posted in this thread . Would this be correct on one of the pistols puffer has so graciously posted ?

IMO while it would most certainly be nice , it would take the item completely out of context .
The same could be said for using the same type of engraving on say an American mad rifle of the mid 18th century . Most certainly again the work would be wonderful but it would not be correct for a time period and place where the engraving had change to a very simple , often time crude type of work . wouldn’t it be as out of place as using that simple type of engraving on a depiction of a higher end English or French serving platter or other item .

So by looking back we can see these changes and if we understand that in their context they are very much different . In doing that research we also can explain to the costumer how a given item may have been used and somewhat the context of that use , as well as all the fascinating history surrounding that item .
I think to often we in today’s world forget that we are tomorrows history . 200 years from now someone could very well be looking back at a item we did our work on and asking the very same thing by saying :WOW look at this . What made the change , how did this work change , how did they do that , how does the type of work fit into the scheme of changing times .

[puffer]

Originally Posted by PS_Bond

The silver bugle is (was) the cap badge of the Light Infantry regiments - now found as part of the dress of The Rifles; until I went and checked, I hadn't realised there had been any Scottish LI regiments. Learn something new every day

http://www.lightinfantry.org.uk

Yes there were & are.

Here is a picture of a Cameron cap badge I just ordered



BTW look for a PM or email from me

Puffer

[Danny C]

Thanks for the clarification.

PS as far as it being "off topic" about your hobbies, you (we) could move to the WATER COOLER and be happly engaged in telling what we do as Work or Fun (or if really fortunate) both at the same time.

[puffer]

Originally Posted by Danny C

PS as far as it being "off topic" about your hobbies, you (we) could move to the WATER COOLER and be happly engaged in telling what we do as Work or Fun (or if really fortunate) both at the same time.

Danny, You are CORRECT, SORRY

Puffer

[puffer]

Now we can move on to some of the "nicer" examples of the engraver's art.
These pistols would be owned by those of "means"

The first 3, although made by different makers & in different localities, have (IMHO) VERY similar designs.
1. the 1st 2 are from the Doune area. ( ca. 1700 - 1720 ??) IMHO, the top pistol is of the earliest date.


2. This is a pistol made in Glasgow by Patrick Buchanan (ca. 1717-1724 )



Does anyone have any THOUGHTS on
1.The designs themselves ???
2. Possible "INFLUENCES" ???
2. How the ENGRAVING was done ???

Thank you

Puffer

[Roger Bleile]

Originally Posted by puffer

Does anyone have any THOUGHTS on
1.The designs themselves ???
2. Possible "INFLUENCES" ???
2. How the ENGRAVING was done ???
Puffer

Thoughts: I have always wondered why most engraving on Scottish all metal pistols looked so crude relative to the engraving on guns of the same era made in England and France. I have seen a very few Scottish pistols that were finely decorated but I think they are a rare example.

Now you might answer that the crude looking work is done on pistols of lower quality just to get some decoration on the piece and keep it from looking so plain. My answer to that is that the crude appearance of the engraving is due to poorly laid out designs not a lack of skill in the actual engraving. That said, it takes no longer to engrave a poor design than a good one. I am not refering to the ammount of coverage or shading cuts. What I mean is that it takes no longer to cut a scroll with a uniform, concentric backbone than to cut one with a backbone full of elbows and flat spots. The same goes for geometric shapes such as the circle with a star in it on the Buchanan pistol shown. Also note the poorly laid out makers name.

Perhaps the answer is that in Scotland the maker had to do his own engraving yet he was never apprenticed as an engraver and the makers discovered that as long as the piece was covered by lots of decoration it was good enough for the masses. This is still going on to some degree today. Take a look at various gun auction and sale sites on the web and search "engraved." You will find along with many well-executed guns some of the crudest, most ill conceived engraving listed in glowing terms by the seller.

As far as the designs themselves and influences, other than thistles and other purely Scottish motifs, I think they come from the same influences as most gun decoration throughout history. Dr. Harris in his book "Gun Engraving as a Decorative Art" has stated a pretty good case for the influences as coming from Islamic art as far as the scroll, leaf, and geometric patterns are concerned. Lots of border work, even today, goes back to ancient Greek and Roman fretwork found in architecture.

How was the engraving done? The same way all engraving of the time was done. Since the metals were largely bronze, brass, and iron most work could be accomplished by a graver (burin/push graver) however some was done with hammer and chisel.

Just my opinions. What say you?

Roger

[charles starks]

i think probably your correct roger .
While I most certainly am not an accomplished graver myself , layout is important regardless of what we do, be it wood carving , or the complete building of an item .
I also cant help but wonder if maybe the political climate of the time played a roll in the Scottish items .
This im thinking would have been different then what we talked about earlier in this thread with the fall of the autocracy in many countries.
Could the standing of the Scots and Irish in and outside England at the time have played a roll ?. I think it very mush could have especially concerning mounting these examples from all iron .
We know that in the time frame these pistols were made England was starving for iron importing most all of it from across the channel .
As such I cant help but wonder if mounting these such pieces in all iron was not only an attempt a durability . As puffer stated ,the weapon was designed to be simply discarded and picked up after the fact . This would IMO have made the chances of this weapon being when later retrieved , still very serviceable .but also I cant help but think this would also have been a slap in the face to the government that they may have saw as holding their people back.

If this was true , then could the engraving itself also been secondary and when speaking of its quality and really nothing more then just a way of elevating the status of a more common person .
Basically what im trying to get at is maybe the engraving , while lacking in its details and proper layout , was more based on just being engraved , with more of a rebellion to the peoples standing of the time .
Could this really have been making a statement such as saying . Here is an example of our people , we are unique , we are strong . There is nothing delicate abut us .
In doing such would not this style while lacking, produced an item that would instantaneously be identified as being produced and done by a specific people . Identifying those people as individuals .

Another thing I wonder is if some of this engraving may not have been done by the owner themselves , not by the builder .?
Some of the work to me looks clearly to have been done after the fact such as the name on the last photo puffer provided as it doesn’t match the quality of the rest of the piece .
Could not also this explain some of the examples that have much lighter and more simple engravings

[puffer]

:whoo: Gentlemen, Thank you for your THOUGHTS. I think we are "STARTING" to get some GOOD insight into this ????:yesnod: :yesnod:
MORE !!!

But before I add my simplistic thoughts, here some more to consider.

The next 2 pictures are pistols that were made for specific individuals & have a documented province.

1.This gun is one of a pair that was carried by Major Pitcairn @ Lexington, & poss. @ Bunker Hill ( Amer. Rev. War ) --- ( Note -- there is some controversy, but this is not the place to discuss this.) It was also carried by an Amer. officer ( as a spoil of war )

2. This Pistol was made for high NW Co. Official, William McGillway, ( Montreal Canada ) By Jn. Murdoch of Doune.

Puffer

[puffer]

Here are a couple of "FINER" ENGRAVING. These are in addition to others I have posted.





Comments PLEASE

Puffer

[puffer]

Originally Posted by charles starks

Another thing I wonder is if some of this engraving may not have been done by the owner themselves , not by the builder .?
Some of the work to me looks clearly to have been done after the fact such as the name on the last photo puffer provided as it doesn’t match the quality of the rest of the piece .
Could not also this explain some of the examples that have much lighter and more simple engravings

Good thought.

NOTE - a "good share" of the guns do not have a Maker's name engraved as a part of the "engraving.Often the maker put his/her "mark on the inside of the lock. But here are some that you might want to consider & COMMENT on.






Puffer

[puffer]

Wrapping up my thoughts

By isolating it to a very specific time frame & small culture + utilizing a specific it, here are my thoughts.

I. Although basically a "tribal" culture & very independent, did develop an "art identity" in the form of engraving on their "all metal" pistols.
II. The "MOTIFS" used seem to reflect their adaptation of the surrounding cultures.
A. The thistle & "knots", although often attributed to the Irish, seem also to be a basic Viking theme. ???
B. The other reoccurring, themes ??? IMHO from the English & French. ( NOTE - The one theme, I can not find in other engraving, I have seen, is the "STAR" ???

III. The engravers
A. These individuals seem to fall into 4 categories
1. The owners themselves
2. Gun makers who were not engravers, but put "engraving" on the guns because the buyer wanted it (lower income customers)
3. Gun makers who had engraving skills, but often were not "true" engravers (in the "ART") ("middle" income")
4. True Engravers, who were commissioned to do the work ( wealthy clientèle)

IV. The END of this art form. Here we can be fairly certain of the time frame
The major decline began in 1746, with the "Disarming Act" Although some of the "Sottish" gun makers still were producing their "art" for officers of the "Scottish Regiments",there were few. In 1782, with the repeal of the ACT, there was a "revival of interest in the "Highland" dress, but few "true" Highland pistols were made. In 1812, the last of the "GREAT" makers died, so did the "ART"

TODAY The "HIGHLAND MYTH" Most of what we see today as being "Highland" is a ROMANTICIZED idea that is ENGLISH & dates from King George, with the main "concepts coming from the time of Victoia,

So were does that leave the engraver of today ????
I. He/She can do the painstaking research & produce an AUTHENTIC HIGHLAND work
II. He/She can sucome to the MYTH & produce a "ROMANTICIZED" version

Puffer

[charles starks]

thank you puffer , some good things to think on im sure

[Roger Bleile]

Originally Posted by puffer

Wrapping up my thoughts...
So were does that leave the engraver of today
I. He/She can do the painstaking research & produce an AUTHENTIC HIGHLAND work
II. He/She can sucome to the MYTH & produce a "ROMANTICIZED" version
Puffer

To paraphrase a quote from The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance "When the legend becomes fact engrave the legend."

Most customers prefer romanticized versions of historic things and if that is your customer you give it to them if you want to stay in business. On the other hand, if your customers are mainly "stitch Counter" reinactors you go authentic. In my experience the latter group is a relatively low dollar clientele. The other problem with reproducing crudely engraved arms is that I can't bring myself to engrave that way. Most experienced engravers today have struggled to cut scrollwork with smooth, concentric spirals not ones with elbows and flat spots. They cut leaves that look like styalized leaves, not a bunch of lumps. Once an engraver reaches this level he/she can't easily go back. Also the engraver has his/her reputation to consider. If a skilled engraver were to reproduce the naive work shown on many of these examples it would not in any way enhance his/her reputation. Quite the contrary! On the other hand, take a beginner engraver who's work is at the level of this historic work. The beginner would not have the skill to styalistically reproduce correctly. So there's the rub.

[puffer]

Originally Posted by Roger Bleile

To paraphrase a quote from The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance "When the legend becomes fact engrave the legend."

Most customers prefer romanticized versions of historic things and if that is your customer you give it to them if you want to stay in business. On the other hand, if your customers are mainly "stitch Counter" reinactors you go authentic. In my experience the latter group is a relatively low dollar clientele. The other problem with reproducing crudely engraved arms is that I can't bring myself to engrave that way. Most experienced engravers today have struggled to cut scrollwork with smooth, concentric spirals not ones with elbows and flat spots. They cut leaves that look like styalized leaves, not a bunch of lumps. Once an engraver reaches this level he/she can't easily go back. Also the engraver has his/her reputation to consider. If a skilled engraver were to reproduce the naive work shown on many of these examples it would not in any way enhance his/her reputation. Quite the contrary! On the other hand, take a beginner engraver who's work is at the level of this historic work. The beginner would not have the skill to styalistically reproduce correctly. So there's the rub.

Roger,I hope that you & the other ENGRAVERS did not take offense to my statements about the Engraver's choses. In fact I agree with you. It is the client that we must satisfy. But the point that I was attempting to make was that one has the chose of offering a client a "historically "accurate" reproduction or a romanticized one. But I do feel that the client should be made aware of the difference. It is then up to them.

BTW. A NOTE on Re-en actors. Or "stitch counters". You might be surprised @ the Clientèle ( do not forget that HISTORICAL "re-enacting covers a lot of genes & the $$$$ spent. Yes the majority, like our general society, are $$$ conscience, but there are many who are not. An example was a resent "Regency Ball" The cost of the "costume" of the couple, I went with, easely exceded $6,000.00 ( I have no idea of the value of the "museum" reproduction" jewelry she wore.) And they represented about the upper middle of those there.

Oh yes, the Scottish outfits ( Kilts = $800.00 + semi- custom Swords = 1,000) Dirks = $800.00 ( custom = 3-4 Xs)

Black powder/Muzzle loading. A top end "prduction" rifle = $1,200 - $3,000 A finely built, well carved ( with engraving) "Kentucky" can run $5,000 or more.

In closing, I would like to say YES !!! to your STATEMENT about CRAFTSMANSHIP. Whether an engraver, gun builder, leather worker etc. There are those who have spent countless hours refining their ART, & are constantly working to improve. These are the individuals that IMHO, any of us who are "growing, look to and yes, hope someday to acheive the leval of expertise. ( at best, @ least in my case, hope to some day own a creation done by them)

My friend, HOLD to your Standards.

Puffer