thoughts

[charles starks]

Yep just as puffer says . In fact those of us that produce those rifles in the 1000.00 -5000.00 range and much , much higher are often backed up at least a year on delivery . i know several well know builders of historically accurate pieces that are 3 years behind and referring folks to others.

As far as reputation . Reputation is in the eye of the beholder or beholders .
When it comes to stitch counter ? Well folks who are looking for that type of work know who and where to go to get it . In doing so those folks who provide such works find themselves with their own reputations of quality.

As far as low dollar .?
I don’t find that to be true at all . Take clothing
You can buy at machine sewn shirt of correct muzzling or Lenin for 30 to 40 bucks from most any trader .
However buy one that’s properly hand sewn , from a correct period pattern, of material in the proper weight and color ,,,, your going to pay 3 times the machine work .
The key really is to establish a reputation of being capable of producing that type of work ..
As you say though , you give the people what they want . Im the same with my rifles . I have roughly 250 to 300 hours in each piece. More with some models.
You want a hand made iron barrel instead of a machined one ,, no problem but stand back because the price just doubled
As such when people call and say they want a rifle built and then antiqued to look 250 years old ,I cringe .
I used to say nope I don’t do provide that as an option and suggest the customer do it themselves . I just couldn’t stand the idea of working so long on a piece and then beating it up . Then I started realizing that if the customer wants it that way and are willing to pay more for it ?

Same with the pistols that puffer has posted . While to a skilled engraver these pieces may be lacking . To the folks looking for such authenticity , they would command high dollar prices .
As far as the size of clientele?, well all one has to do is look at the decline of the participation in the simple rendezvous seen and the raise in participation in re-enactments and juried events . The major decline in and closing of companies producing production line, highly incorrect examples of rifles . Compared to the custom gun market which has boomed over the last 10 years


I also think that we are much more concerned about perfection today then they were 250 years ago . Everything from inletting to parts must be perfect, tight and within tolerances .
While its easy to show original pieces where this isn’t so concerning inletting of parts . We must remember these examples are 200 + years old and have wear. However when we look at hand made locks and their workings which often still show the quality of workman ship. They simply would not pass inspection today .
Folks today really want both worlds IE correct examples BUT the quality of today . Sometimes you simply cant have it both ways

Engravings also I think are in this same realm. Today we concern ourselves with perfect scrolls , Balanced layouts, fine clean lines .
While some of the engravers 200 years ago also did this , a vast majority , as has been shown , simply did not . However they produced examples that were still very pleasing to the eye .

So really maybe the reason we see the decline in the works that have been shown in this thread is more to a change of mindset by the artisans themselves more then anything else

[Roger Bleile]

I don't want to get into a war of words here and didn't intend to offend anyone. I understand where you are coming from. One of my oldest and dearest friends is an 18th century reinactor and self described "stitch counter" who I have learned much from about all things from the period you are interested in.

When I mentioned low dollar... I was speaking in a relative sense regarding guns. I do work some work on cowboy action shooter type guns and also consider that a low dollar market. Generally most engravings on single actions and replica 1866's and 1873's run in the $750.00 to $2,500.00 range. Add to that the cost of a Colt SAA starting at about $1,500.00 or a Uberti rifle at about $1,000.00 and you have a range of $1,750.00 to about $4,000.00 for the whole item.

When you look at some of the shotguns and double rifles shown on this site and the Engravers Cafe site made by James Purdy, Holland & Holland, P.V. Nelson and so forth you will be looking at a "high dollar" market. The basic bespoke gun is in the $60,000.00 to $100,000.00 range and then the engraving can take it to a quarter million or better. One gun engraved by Phil Coggen is presently for sale at an asking price of $350,000.00! That is what I mean by high dollar.

By the way, It looks like this could be the winning thread in the contest with over 200 posts! Charles has started an excellent discussion on a topic that is apparently of great interest (and diverse opinions) here.

Roger

[puffer]

Originally Posted by Roger Bleile

I don't want to get into a war of words here and didn't intend to offend anyone. I understand where you are coming from. One of my oldest and dearest friends is an 18th century reinactor and self described "stitch counter" who I have learned much from about all things from the period you are interested in.

When I mentioned low dollar... I was speaking in a relative sense regarding guns. I do work some work on cowboy action shooter type guns and also consider that a low dollar market. Generally most engravings on single actions and replica 1866's and 1873's run in the $750.00 to $2,500.00 range. Add to that the cost of a Colt SAA starting at about $1,500.00 or a Uberti rifle at about $1,000.00 and you have a range of $1,750.00 to about $4,000.00 for the whole item.

When you look at some of the shotguns and double rifles shown on this site and the Engravers Cafe site made by James Purdy, Holland & Holland, P.V. Nelson and so forth you will be looking at a "high dollar" market. The basic bespoke gun is in the $60,000.00 to $100,000.00 range and then the engraving can take it to a quarter million or better. One gun engraved by Phil Coggen is presently for sale at an asking price of $350,000.00! That is what I mean by high dollar.

By the way, It looks like this could be the winning thread in the contest with over 200 posts! Charles has started an excellent discussion on a topic that is apparently of great interest (and diverse opinions) here.

Roger

Roger, I for one WAS NOT in the LEAST bit Offended In fact your replies have been great IMHO. The problem is the fact that we are trying to communicate in a format, that leaves much to be desired.

BTW, I have been "lurking" in the "cafe" area & The ART work that I am seeing is an affermation, that the "ART of Engraving" is ALIVE & WELL". & that there are those that will continue to keep the TRADITION alive.

Thank you all for letting me share & LEARN. This site is one that I will continue to watch ( & maybe toss something out there so I can continue to LEARN.)

Puffer

[charles starks]

no offense here . simply discussing .
we also have to remember that those Pauly , Purdy and Manton guns call so much from who they were made by . there are only so many around .

as to that price range of engraving we also have to remember the clientele is relatively small who can afford such items with most in that price range being distend for collections not actual use .
Most certainly that level of workmanship is something to strive for but it is also way out of reach for the vast majority of folks I think . So in the main time we must as artisans provide items that sell in the market we are aiming for . In the end maybe we are not so different from the artisans of old

[charles starks]

cody does some fine work . his toe plate and side plate is well done and fits .

as to what folks espect MMM good question , that would depend , if one was looking for a fine exsample or a working gun .
at a later date some exsamples would have this heavy engraving . John armstrong was known for this on his higher end exsamples .

again cody is a fine smith , very fine .

[Martin Strolz]

It is hard to come by, but look for the book:
Master French Gunsmith`s Designs, 1970, Stephen V. Grancsay, Wichester Press, NY, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 74-99752
Reproduced in facsimile, just excellent!

[Roger Bleile]

I have the book that Martin is writing about and it is definately something that applys to this thread. The only problem is that they were made in very limited copies and are usually very expensive if you can find one. Here is a link to one for sale for $250. which may seem high but it is a very good price and will only grow in value.

http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/cum/31343.shtml

Roger

[charles starks]

The thing to remember is just as we have been discussing , times , and regions show great changes .
Grancsay’s book is a very good one but just like Lenk’s book , it profiles other types of weapons makers and doesn’t focus on American weapons specifically .
While most certainly the engraving and examples are wonderful , the work was in most cases at a much higher caliber then what would have been found on the rifles like the one Cody is working on..
Now this isn’t to say it didn’t exist on these rifles.
To put it simply during the time frame these were being produced here in the colonies , it was not uncommon for a gunsmith to use what he had . As such we find side plates , locks , and other hardware from both British and French weapons being used especially on ordnance made weapons .

This relates back to what puffer was saying earlier .
Basically we can do what ever we like or what the customer likes or wants on a piece . Nothing wrong with that as each of these are a work of art in and of themselves .
However if we are shooting for an example of a specific time frame, location and maker then the work should be true to the existing documented examples . As such one has to study specifics

Its also interesting to not that by looking at the original example we can tell not only what school a maker was from but what area of specialty they trained in .
Normally say a person who was more inline with wood working skills will show an example that has very well done carving and inletting . But their bright work normally suffers .
The opposite is also true in that if a person/ maker was more skilled in metal work , their engraving and bright work would be of a higher quality then their wood work those the wood areas suffered in compression.
The better smiths normally show a balance of equal skill . These are the people we most often read about today and who’s names live on

[Ddbltrbl]

Question for puffer (or anyone else),
It may just be my lack of exposure, but I don't remember seeing anything quite like the thin 5-pointed star in a circle pattern that used on grip and back of the hammer (is that the right term for the part that holds the flint?) of several of these Scottish pistols. Are you aware of any particular significance or symbolism it has for the Scotts?

[charles starks]

i have seen this alot on Scottish pieces of this time frame . it seems to very in detail depending on who owned the piece .
the Scottish weapons are not an area im to familiar with when it comes to their decoration or meanings .
But I will see what I can find for you

[charles starks]

just letting you know im working on this for you .
Im sure Puffer would have the answer as the scottish peice are is area of historical knowlage .
however im not sure if he is having problems or not . i have not seen him logged on here or any of the other historical forums for some time .
I probably better give him a call and see if all is ok .
as soon as i get an answer ill post it for you

[puffer]

Chas., Sorry for not picking up on this. Please give me a little time to get my info together.

BTW thank you for your concern. I am well, but this has been a chaotic time. I PM'd you on the TMA.

Puffer

[puffer]

Originally Posted by Ddbltrbl

Question for puffer (or anyone else),
It may just be my lack of exposure, but I don't remember seeing anything quite like the thin 5-pointed star in a circle pattern that used on grip and back of the hammer (is that the right term for the part that holds the flint?) of several of these Scottish pistols. Are you aware of any particular significance or symbolism it has for the Scotts?

OK, here goes.

FIRST though, "Disclaimers"
1. My "thoughts" are only mine & they may be correct or not.:innocent:
2. There is NO WAY we can be definitive Esp. since we do not have the info on the owner(s)


Thoughts (IMHO)

1. What it is NOT. It is NOT a Pentagram !!!
Therefor (IMHO) It is NOT:
A. Pagan or Witca etc.
2. It is NOT Masonic.

WHAT IT MAYBE
A. Simply a common Design.
B. A Christian Symbol ( Star of Jacob,Star of Jesus, Star of Bethlehem etc)
1. The Scots @ this time were quite "religious" ( Catholic, Presbyterian,Episcopal) note it has been found on Gravestones ( esp, Presbyterian)
C. HERALDRY - the 5 pointed star is called a "MULLET" NOTE - the English "MULLET" differs from the Scottish, in that the English Millet is solid, But the Scottish Mullet is "PIERCED"

IMHO @ least 2 of the examples are MULLET (Scottish Versions)

Note, both of these are "Pierced" 5 point Stars.

Here is a later ( 1860 ++) example of an English "MULLET" being used by by the Cameron Rifles.

Puffer

[charles starks]

thank you puffer for the reply

here is also another answer that i received when i posed you question to some other folks

Cap
Most decoration on Scottish pistols are religious and known as Celtic engraving and originated from eastern countries.A lot of their designs are similar to those in the world famous Lindisfarne Gospels which were wrote by monks just south of the Scottish border.
The star sign was also pierced behind the cock ,the Campbell family and Christie family of Doune used this on several of their pistol.
Feltwad

[hoochiepapa]

I would like to remind everyone that the medium was not steel, but softer iron and hand forged. So it would seem that the work would be easier to cut.
There is a modern gun builder named Dennis Priddy who has done some very fine work like the above, and he could tell how hard it is. I've not been in touch with him in years, so I can't help with contact info.

[jerrywh]

Charles.
First off there are people today that can do anything that you have shown in the drawings. Although I know it may sound like bragging I can do anything I have seen so far and I know others that can. The hardest thing to execute in the examples shown is the perfectly smooth background. I think it is in the book Steel Canvas there is a shotgun by the Brown Brothers that is a perfect example of this smooth background. Remember the Engravers back then never watched TV or wasted time on the net.
Almost all of us are part time engravers. Those men of that time period were full time engravers and gold smiths who usually started when they were about 12 years old and did it until they were too old to work. They had magnification also in the form of large and small powerful magnifying glasses. As far as the smooth background is concerned, some of the relief may be iron inlays in relief and the background may not have been cut down to begin with. Another reason we don't see this now days is it is hard to get a client who will pay for such time consuming work.
Gravers can be sharpened like scrapers to aid a lot in doing the smooth background. There much about sharpening gravers that is never taught by anybody I know nor is it in any books on the subject. Some of that chiseled work requires some unusual type gravers and a lot of it is done with punches instead of gravers. There is a lot to be learned from those ancient artists. I have been studying them for at least 30 years.
Joe Rundell is one who can do about anything that is possible as well as Coggan, Lee Griffith, Mike Dubber, Eric Gold, Alain Lovenberg. There is a guy in the CLA that is very good at that sort of engraving. Can't remember his name right now. The problem is there is little or no demand for the Baroque style now. Rococo will sell.