Unacceptable failure???

[Chad]

I have a question for the custom knife makers out there.
I have had a medium quality custom knife close on my hand.
I am not naming the maker, it is a liner lock, it cost me over $500.
It is a few years old and the liner is titanium.
I tend to think of my knife as THE tool I can depend on in an emergency or in the event of my being attacked.
This accident occured after I hit a deer with my van and I stepped into the ditch to finish off the crippled deer.
I thrust into its neck several times to cut the aorta. The point caught the spinal column causing a flexing stress, the lock had a tiny amount of blood on it and that acted as a lubricant that caused the lock to fail and close on me.
I had to drive 30 minutes to the ER and recieved 8 stitches on my index finger.
Fortunatly I did NOT sever the tendon.

Should I expect any custom knife to come with the diclaimer:
1. 'You may absolutly trust your life to this tool UNLESS a drop or two of blood should get on it, then you must expect it to try and chop off the operator's fingers?!!

2. Only rely on this tool/weapon if you are within easy walking distance of the ER?!!

I have lost all faith in the tool that I thought was the highest quality I could afford, there was No oil on the lock just blood.

What if I was hunting in the middle of no where, and in the middle of gutting a deer, this happened and I had to walk for hours for help?

[Mcahron]

Its possible that some tissue,hair,etc got forced into the lock when you put the deer out of its misery.Also liner locks sometimes need adjustments every so often.Open the knife normaly and hit the spine(back) of the blade against some wood.Did the lock fail? If so return it to the maker for warranty.If not I think its likely something got forced into the lock/spring and that led to the failure.

[theresamarieus]

How are you doing? How long ago did this happen? I hope you are going to be ok! I know I fear something happening to my hands- kinda freak when I hurt my hands. First I get mad- like that is going to fix anything, but it is a natural reaction. Sounds like you might have some stitches if you went to the ER. I know for me that would be worse than a stubbed toe.
My son is always giving me knives for gifts. I think it is his way of taking care of mom, of course I think it cute. He explains how it works and shows me how to open and close the blade. I won't tell him (because I wouldn't want to hurt his feelings for the world) but I don't trust folders. I like a fixed blade if I need to cut something.
Sorry that happened to you. Please let us know how you are doing. Take good care of yourself.

[JRon]

Chad:
I agree that a folder can't be trusted like a fixed blade. However, you can't or shouldn't be able to carry a fixed blade in your everyday pocket. I had an automatic open in my pocket once (I was lucky, I still have a deep voice). I would get in touch with the maker
and explain the problem, he needs to know of the failure (someone else could have worse results). I hope that thing heal and you're still able to perform your skills. Being an
engraver for over 40 years the one thing that has always scared me was loosing my vision.

[WVEngraver]

Originally Posted by JRon

Chad:
I had an automatic open in my pocket once (I was lucky, I still have a deep voice).

JR, you crack me up. I had an OTF do the same thing to me. Luckily I never got around to upgrading the spring in it. It's back in the "collection" where it belongs.

---------

Chad, it's one thing to carry a knife that displays your work ... it's another thing to carry one that is intended for self defense. Sometimes I carry two for just that reason.

Every second counts and a small fixed blade on your belt or a decent size, assisted opening, tactical folder clipped to your pocket is what you need. Proficiency with the right knife will always put you at an advantage ... even against an adversary carrying a deep concealment firearm.

Good thing that deer couldn't fight back and most of all that things worked out.

[Chad]

Yes I will be fine, no tendon damage.
If you hold your right hand up palm towards you and mentally draw a line that travels at a 45 degree angle from the top (as your looking at your palm) starting at your first knuckle and running towards the end of your finger and make the cut hit the bone then scream multiple obcenities.
Like I said eight stitches were needed to patch me up.
It is likely thatfor the next month or so I wont be doing anything where I might bump it, but I will be fine.
This happened on Sun night.
This is a very nice knife with a 4 inch long blade and while not assisted opening it still opens very smoothly after years of service with no blade wobble.
I absolutly believe this is a quality piece of workmanship that I purchaced through a very reputable website.
I tested it as recomended by Mcharon slapping the spine against the table edge... it failed to stay locked open under even the most gentle of taps.
A dismal performance.
I will return to have work done on it.
Am I being unrealistic in expecting it to perform flawlessly, out of the box untill the day it suffers catastrophic failure due to metal fatige of the liner lock/spacer?

[Mcahron]

Most liner-locks will loosen over time due to wear at the blade tang /lock interface.If the lock is titanium it will wear quicker than stainless steel hardened and tempered would.I am a knife maker and no longer make linerlocks for this very reason.I believe a button lock is superior and there's some patented locks that are even better.

[Peter]

Sorry to hear of your misfortune Chad. Most knifemakers would absolutely CRINGE if you did the stress test on one of their linerlocks in that price range. While it IS a valid test, it is hard on the knife.

If you are familiar with www.bladeforums.com your post would be interesting to see in the "Custom Knives" forum.

A linerlock should NOT fail as yours did...PERIOD!

Hope you heal quickly.

Regards,
Peter

[Robert Williams]

I agree that the linerlock should not have failed even though they're not the most secure of locking mechanisms for a knife. The Sebenza lock is the best I know of and I wouldn't trust it, either. If you're in a situation where you MUST trust it and your life depends on it, then you have to trust it and hope for the best. The best survival knife is the one you have on you when you need it and that's probably going to be a folder. If you want a knife you can completely trust, a good fixed blade is just the thing. It's just not as handy to carry around all the time and having one strapped to your belt wherever you go raises a lot of eyebrows at the very least.

I'd talk to the maker. I don't know what will come of it, but I'd definitely talk to him.

As to dispatching the deer, a deep slicing cut along the side of the neck will sever the carotid artery putting the animal down very quickly and relatively painlessly. The aortic artery runs along the spine and is harder to reach. Severing the femoral artery is also a quick way to bleed out an animal. Most recommended would be a hammer blow to the back of the skull... but not everyone carries a hammer in their car.

Because of game laws, it's usually best just to call a trooper.

[Chad]

I truley apreciate everyones comments and well wishes.
What I'm wondering though is should I be asking for a liner of differant material?
Is there possibly a probem with the geometry of mating surfaces?
If this is normal wear and tear, and this is a everyday use tool, how often do I need to plan to send my very expensive tool for maintenance?
I understand that knives get dull from use, but I have never seen anyone advertise with the leader that they wiil perpetually maintain the knife or that I should expect it to fail on a routine basis.
The kind of input a maker would know, as far as I know from reading your profiles only one maker has responded.
I know that there is more then one on this site.

[Peter]

If possible the best course of action would be to contact the maker. More than likely they will want to make things right.

You didn't mention if it is a "tactical"/heavy duty type knife or "gentlemans" knife. Either way it should not have failed, but thrusting it into an animal IS hard use for a fine high end knife.

Peter

[David Broadwell]

Originally Posted by Chad

I tested it as recomended by Mcharon slapping the spine against the table edge... it failed to stay locked open under even the most gentle of taps.
A dismal performance.
I will return to have work done on it.
Am I being unrealistic in expecting it to perform flawlessly, out of the box untill the day it suffers catastrophic failure due to metal fatige of the liner lock/spacer?

Several comments, Chad. First, yes, it's unrealistic. I've had all kinds of folder locks fail, including lock backs and liner locks. You get a piece of lint under the lock and it doesn't close completely. Lubricant from the pivot can cause it to slip. The blood, the mud, and the beer don't help things.

Stabbing into the deer and (especially) hitting any bone is a job for a fixed blade, and it's unrealistic to expect a knife that is made to fold to do what a knife that can't fold will do. Folders are neat little utility slicing tools, not heavy duty stabbing tools. Unless you are very familiar with any given animal's anatomy stabbing may not kill it right away. As someone said, slicing a major blood vessel is better, and your folder is primarily a slicing tool. If you had been slicing with your knife it would not have closed on your finger.

That test of rapping the blade back on a table may indicate too little pressure from the lock bar or (more likely) less than optimal geometry between the lock bar and the blade, usually too steep an angle on the blade and/or too short a lock bar. However, this test never did thrill me. It sets up a vibration that can easily cause the lock to break loose. While a liner lock may be more susceptible to failing with this type of test, I've seen well made lock backs fail under a similar test. By all means send it back to the maker to see if there is anything he can do to strengthen the lock, but don't have unrealistic expectations that it won't ever close up under the same circumstances.

Lastly, I'm glad you are alright and that your finger will heal. Like you, I make my living with my hands. I have a nasty cut on my right thumb and trying to grind blades this last week has been difficult.

David

[JP Anderson]

David,

Good post, realistic and to the point. Accidents often happen when we step outside our routine or comfort zone.

I like to blame myself when I have an accident even if at first I don't feel I'm at fault. I learn more that way and I'm less likely to make the same mistakes in the future. A good ski instructor taught me that philosophy and it's served me well.

John

[Lane]

I have never trusted a liner lock even though it is probably the most convienent locking system for a knife that is used for normal cutting chores.

When one puts the following words together to describe a knife the result is an oxymoron: tactical, fighter, liner lock.

But that is just my opinion.

Lane

[SVD]

In another thread, over on a knife forum, someone posted the reminder that the strongest folding knife design out there is the balisong.

Once you flip it around to the open position you pretty much have a fixed blade.

Too bad so many states have SKLs (Stupid Knife Laws) specifically banning them. :(

[Chad]

Thank you David for setting the matter straight.
I intend to send my knife for repair soon and wanted to see just how much right I had to my rightous indignation, not much.
1. I was using the wrong tool the wrong way to do a job it just was not built for.
2. As a gun owner I should have known the second rule; never put complete faith in a mechanical object if it does fail too much injury is almost certain!!!
For the record a slash was attempted accross the neck, didn't even break the skin too much hair, if I had to do over I would go length wise down the side of neck.
SVD you are right about SKL's, butterfly knives,fixed blades, push daggers all cut the same it's the man holding them and the fool trying to legislate behavior by passing meaningless laws that you have to worry about.
Who said "Those who would trade security for freedom usually wind up with neither."
By the way my finger still hurts reall bad so I guess that means no nerve damage either.
Thank you all for your input.

[David Broadwell]

Originally Posted by Chad

Thank you David for setting the matter straight.

So get your finger healed up so you can get back to engraving!

David

[Toad]

I had a browning lock blade come unlocked and it did some damage to my thumb when I was a kid. I still have the scar. I am real careful with lock blades now on how I use them. Todd

[Chad]

All right, just to finish the story.
I sent my knife in and included a copy of this thread, I know that if someone is upset with me I would just as soon have them come right out and tell me.
After a while I called him up to make sure that the knife actually arrived.
It had and he was not happy with me, not looking for a fight...he was just extremely guarded.
I expained that while I love custom knives I don't have the first clue how they work and wanted to recieve a second opinion from his fellow craftsmen.
He still wasn't happy but he was polite and profesional as he explained that this whole mess was my fault because I didn't clean my tools properly or completely. There was dirt on the round stop bar and in the pocket of the blade where they are suposed to mate and they could not, that kept the lock from engaging.
In addition to dissasembling and cleaning I think he also roughed up the surface of the blade where the lock engages.
So this is my Mea Culpa...
In spite of my publicly kicking him in the teeth and insulting his lifes work he still treated me with a lot more respect then I gave him.
I neglected my tools and injured myself and then blamed him.
He still took every precaution to treat me right and to care for the tool that I did not.
In addition he did work on the mating surface all for FREE.
I am sorry and publicly recant everything I said before.

[WVEngraver]

Originally Posted by SVD

Too bad so many states have SKLs (Stupid Knife Laws) specifically banning them. :(

In all things, Liberty finds its' way around the law.

[mtgraver]

Chad,
Well said, you have been quite honorable in your apology and taking responsibility for your actions. You are a better man. A great lesson to learn.
I trust you are making little chips again.
Mark