Project in process

[Rich Hambrook]

Here is a picture of a project in process. This is a Model 12 a gentleman is having customized. I was looking for some critiquing. All engraving was done with the Lindsay Palm Control and bulino work with a custom push tool made by a friend at Browning. The next two pictures are of Ron Riemer and myself at Browning holding the Custom M70's that we did for the President and Vice President of Winchester Ammunition.


Rich Hambrook

[Zernike Au]

Thanks for showing the project in process. I learn a lot from the photos.
I love the scrolls and the big leaves, which is quite different from the project you show us last time. I would like to know what graver you use for the background, it seems it is very difficult to cut the horizontal line with very tight space.

I don't know if you are going to fill in the upper middle part with scroll or leaves but now it looks good. I also notice that the background of the middle part is more than that of the other part which have crowded scrolls and leaves.
I heard about when design a scroll, we better even the background, but if all background are even, it's a bit dull, now your design looks comfortable to my eye while the background is not even, is that sometimes we can break those "rules"?

May I know if there is any special meaning when you put the bird and dog to the design, it seems to me the dog is belong to the hunter and the dog is stare at the bird, waiting the hunter to shot...

Please don't mind my honesty and here is some comments: If you can pay more attention to the skeleton and perspective when drawing the aminals, you can have better result. I suggest you draw the hidden part when doing the sketch. Now it looks to me that the dog is going to falling down to the right, the tail is coming out from the back. The two rear legs are too long, use your finger to hide the right leg (maybe 1/3) and you will see the different. Check the bird as well.

Actually I have struggle to post my comments or not becasue I am just a newbie and I am learning a lot from your project and photos.. I hope you don't mind...

Zernike

[ron]

i don't like to engrave shot guns or rifles but that makes me think about now doing them , but it is hard to give up engraving my favorite gun , the colt saa and 1911, that is just beautiful work thanks for showing .. ron p.

[Peter]

Exceptionally nice work.

Thanks for posting the pics.

Peter

[Steve Ellsworth]

This raises an interesting point to consider which I see occuring all the time when people ask for opinions of their art work.

In general every one oohs and ahhs. If the object is pretty they say so, but if it sucks they say it's pretty too. Rarely will you get an honest answer as fresh as the one Zernike has provided.

So, is there a major difference in the responses given by pro's to pro's vs. begineers to pro's vs. artists to pro's? Carver's to engravers?

When does politically correct get in the way of making good art? When is the time to show a piece and ask for suggestions? Early on or after the design has been cut? How much truth can a pro stand? How fragile is an artist's ego? How discerning is the client and how much can we hope to get by with if we make a boo boo?

I have been painting and carving for so long that I have learned to work with perspective in mind paying strict attention to the physical traits of the animal I wish to portray.

Chances are this design has been worked and reworked so many times that eventually the artist forgot that it is physically impossible for a dog to have all four paws on the same plane when standing in a 3/4 view unless the legs are drawn to the wrong proportions but it happens.

You look at something too long and the brain begins to gloss over the apparent, or you simply have a brain *art and glitch out.

Last year I painted a 12 foot canvas of a couple of elephants for a client. It looked really good until I took time to figure out that I had a breed of elephant native to one end of Africa parked in trees which only grew on the other end of the continent. Thankfully the paint had not set and it could be easily redone. Would the client have figured it out? Who knows. But I would have and I had to make the correction.

Now we are left with a puppy whose physical proportions are off, he is floating in space, and scraping paint isn't an option.

Question is, what next...

[Peter]

Obviously there is a VAST difference between pros and amateurs analysis. The scrollwork and gold inlays are exceptional in my opinion, but after reading Steve E's post I would agree that the puppy does appear to be floating as Zernike observed.

That is why I think these forums are great. I am always learning and get the opportunity to see various opinions.

Peter

[Rich Hambrook]

Thank you all for your critiquing. This is why I posted the pictures. I have absolutely no problem with constructive criticism. If I did I would be an idiot to ask for it. I have to laugh at the comment about the "puppy floating in space" and "puppy falling over" because now that you say it....I see it! Your right, I can't paint over it but I was planning and already put scene work around the lean to. It looks better and kind of hides and ties everything together. I used a 120 graver for the background at the customers request. He prefers this syle of background much to my disliking but it's not my gun.
Thanks again,
Rich Hambrook

[Dave London]

Yes some type of fore and background work around the dog will help correct the dogs position. Thanks for posting and lets see some more Dave

[Rich Hambrook]

Hey guys,
After scratching my head and wondering "How in the heck did the leaning dog and parallel feet happen?" I went back to the original photo and there it was. this explains what happened but I still should have noticed the lean to! The customer wanted his dog's patterns and the tail straight out. He said his dog has never put its tail straight up. That was tough for me to sketch for some reason. I think it was the whole 3/4 turn. Anyhow, lesson learned and that bullet is down range.

Rich
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[Zernike Au]

Rich,
I feel less worry after seeing your response . All you guys make this forum a rather extra-ordinary one. Thanks.

I was told by someone that no matter what we are going to learn(art, drawing, sculpture.....)one very important thing we have to learn is "how to make the change/correction". It often happened after we start our work, then we find something wrong or something we don't like it, and we want to make the change. This not only apply to my works but also to my life.
We have many excellent tutorial here telling how to make good works but never have one telling how to "make the change design in the middle stage of engraving". I just guess you are intended to show us this and going to have a great tutorial showing how you make the change. I will be appreciated if you can show us the final work.

Last month my first knife engraving was a whole mess. It is present to my sister, it is a kitchen knife, I put my sister (just go back to Australia last month) and his husband's name on it. I have engraved wrong name one it, "Rango" instead of "Wingo". I have check the spelling but I just didn't realised that the wrong name is wrote by me on a paper when my sister talk to me on telephone, and I check the name on the knife with the paper!!! Luckly my sister didn't use the knife to attack me! She told me she will find another husband called Rango!!! I can do nothing with the wrong spelling!!!


P.S.The original photo actually showing the dog is lean on the right, it is going to run and turn to right. Further, the photographer tilt the camera a bit so as to add motion to this picture. I can see the varnishing ground level line is not horizontal...but if you adjust such line to horizontal level, it lost the feel of "action". So difficult!!! I know it is not easy to make the engraving from a photo, it is very difficult and Rich you really do a good job.

Thanks again.

Zernike

[Rich Hambrook]

Zernike,
Thank you for all of your postings. I really appreciate your advice. I was laughing at your knife story because it brings back memories. Occasionally I have to engrave names on rifle bolts here and occasionally I "MISS SPELL THEM!":smilie5: Even though the correct spelling is right in front of me. I guess I just automatically spell them the way I think they should be spelled. So when ever we have visitors come through the shop and they look at engraving work, my refinishing buddy tells them "Yeah, he's a pretty good engraver but he just can't spell very well!". You should see the puzzled looks! Good conversing with you.

Rich

[Steve Ellsworth]

Well crap, now the bullets down range and I have been doodling on the target. Probably get shot in the butt for this one but it was fun to figure out.

What bit you was the photography and a couple of hounds off point.

Sometimes it is easier just to go get the picture you need and be safe.

First thing to do is learn about how dogs are put together - bone structure and all that boring stuff so you can compensate for the pictures and how cameras can lie to you. Never trust one photograph. Get lots of pictures to work from. Ever go to Olan Mills and get one baby picture?

I threw in some lines for bone structure physical clues about the dogs and perspective lines - these are simply things you get used to looking for if you work from pics a lot or do a ton of sculpture.

Now here is the same picture rotated 8 degrees without the visual clues
can you see what bit you?



In short it was the short focal length lens of the camera
- the distance from the camera to the dogs
- camera being tilted when the photo was taken
- the dogs were on the rise of a small hill
- the photgraph was taken looking uphill
- perspective errors are eye bending

Now look at the dogs feet and draw a line from each paw to paw - it should form a box with diminishing perspective. that same box will match up with the knees and the bodies of the respective dogs if you resize it.

So the secret is:
When you draw dogs or any other critter (human included) you dont think outside the box. You think inside. If you can't find the feet you find other parts and reference off of them with structural architecture in mind and you will be dead on every time.

The key here was the plant between the dogs. Which is way in front of them and the simple fact that things get smaller from front to rear and closer to farther. So the point of infinity had to be somewhere on the left judging by the grass.

Take care.... I gotta get back to carving.

[Steve Lindsay]

Hi Rich, Beautiful engraving!

I really didn't notice a tilted dog. I'm sure you meant do that. It isn't a mistake if you meant to do it.

My father purchased two knives from Lynton around 1980. One engraving has a rather big mistake. It has the scroll on backward on one side compared to the other. When Lynton smoked it to the other side he mirrored it ok, but it is rotated 180 degrees to what it is customary when we flip patterns on knives. Heck, we should look at mistakes as making our work more valuable. I'm sure that is the way dad sees this piece.

Your dog really does look good though and I didn't notice the tilt.

Steve

[Rich Hambrook]

"Coin cutter Steve,
Wow, your analysis and critiquing amazes me. I must say I am a bit confused simply because I have never been taught that perspective. I would really enjoy sitting down with you some day and picking your brain. I am sure your doodling (for a lack of better words) make sense to some. Although I am overwhelmed, I am still impressed. The most important part is the the customers happiness. He came to my studio to have a "sneak preview" and about fell over with joy. Thankfully we still have the good ol' "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". But on the flip side of the coin (no pun intended )we all have a lot to learn and you have proven that here. Thinking back when I initially viewed this picture I saw it as the dogs got a big wiff of a tasty feathered friend to their left and froze in there tracks as trained. I will study your analysis closely!

Steve Lindsay, thank you so much for your compliments. Its is amazing, and I believe great, to get views from all sides of the stadium. I think everyone will see something different when looking at the same thing and this is why I posted the pics.

Thank you very much to everyone on your thoughts, compliments and critiques!

Rich